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Concealed-carry has no place on campus

Abstract:
While debate over whether or not to allow concealed guns on Georgia college campuses played out on the editorial pages of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, little has been said by those whom a gun control bill actually would affect - college students, faculty, staff and administration....

Hank Rearden

posted 9/05/08 @ 8:23 AM EST

When seconds count...the police are only minutes away.
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Wake Up

posted 9/05/08 @ 8:53 AM EST

Obviously you've never had someone threaten to take your life. In that situation, you would want anything to defend you. I don't care if you'd say you'd never shoot someone, because it's a different ball game when your life is being threatened. People who are going to kill will do it regardless of any laws. If you ever encounter a situation like I have...then let me know how your karate chop works.
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Mitch

posted 9/05/08 @ 9:22 AM EST

Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.
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dave

posted 9/05/08 @ 9:41 AM EST

Originally posted by

Mitch

 Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.


Can you tell me the statistical likelihood of this happening. Can you inform me as to how many times that UGA has been "shot up" in the past 100 years?

Although school shootings are a terrible thing, they are rare events carried out by individuals with less than stellar mental health. Arming a number of drunk redneck vigilantes such as yourself isn't going to make campus any safer.
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Jake

posted 9/05/08 @ 12:37 PM EST

Dave,
It's not just about trying to protect ourselves from being 'shot up.' It's about that 100 lb girl who's walking home late one night when some weird guy sneaks up behind her. It's about protecting yourself from that strongarm robbery. Keep in mind, when people aren't allowed to conceal carry ON campus they often don't conceal carry TO campus for the simple problem of storage.
In the end, it's about not being the first to be 'shot up' or as some would put it, becoming just another statistic. Yes, chances of bad stuff like that happening are quite slim. However, while we never, ever want to have to use a concealed weapon in self defense, we would rather be prepared than injured, have our money and info stolen or worse.

Originally posted by

Mitch

 Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.
Post a reply to this comment

ugadawg

posted 9/05/08 @ 5:56 PM EST

Originally posted by

Mitch

 Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.


people getting robbed on campus or near by it happens quite frequently. also, don't consider this a UGA only situation! think about the campus in Atlanta (Tech and GA State). the possibility of this situation happening there is probably great. something else, the situation this person presented is not a campus-shoot up situation. even though they rarely happen, they still happen. the presented situation happens much more frequently, and what if this criminal decides to get mad that your wallet didn't contain more money...you might end up dead unless you have a way to defend yourself. as a final note, think about virginia tech or poor merideth emerson hiking through the north georgia mountains. nobody was there to save here...i wish i could have or that she could have defended herself.
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Jason

posted 9/06/08 @ 12:06 PM EST

Originally posted by

Mitch

 Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.


I really don't appreciate your ignorance. Assuming that someone who owns a gun is a "drunk redneck vigilante" shows your true colors. When will you stop judging people?

The fact is that a lot of people from many different backgrounds own guns. You don't have have to be a drunk, southern redneck to own one, so I don't understand where you get your hostility towards gun owners.

It is simply natural to have a desire to defend yourself against attacks that, despite your personal invulnerability, do happen to quite a lot of people.

I really don't agree with the liberal use of guns to enforce rules or personal vengeance. However, I do see guns is a reasonable option when the immediate protection of a police officer is not available (and this is the case most of the time).
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John

posted 9/07/08 @ 4:14 PM EST

UGA Police do not enforce parking permits. I am a former UGA officer and I agree that law enforcement on campus is a joke and is not taken seriously. Officers are discouraged from being proactive in stopping suspicious people at night in parking lots. I fully support concealed carry on campus. I am a police officer in another jurisdiction and a grad student at GA State now. I carry my gun concealed everywhere I go. Look at all the armed robberies on GA Tech's campus where locals come to rob unarmed students at gun point. A robbers greatest hunting ground is a place where he knows his victims will be unarmed. Criminals could care less about gun laws, they only serve to disarm law abiding citizens.


Originally posted by

Mitch

 Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.
Post a reply to this comment

Jay

posted 9/08/08 @ 10:16 PM EST

Originally posted by

Mitch

 Basic liberal opinions! Oh just add more police and offer extended bus access.

Hypothetical...
Imagine yourself walking from a late night at the SLC to the bus stop or walking home. That criminal that didn't get the memo about guns being illegal on campus rides by and sees you as an easy target. As the car stops you see the danger and call 911. They first won't even listen until an attack has been made, so after the criminal knocks the phone from your hand the dispatcher might decide to send you help.
The only problem is the UGA police are across town trying to catch dangerous speeders, or riding through one of the numerous off campus parking lots checking for illegal parking at the beltway.
You feel the cold steel of a pistol press against your temple, or the sharp edge of a knife press against you while he demands your money.
At that moment, you are nothing! You have absolutely no defense against a criminal element.
As you see bystanders and fellow students run the other way, them helpless as well, you think back about how good it felt to write a goofy opinion about why guns and weapons are not needed on campus.
So the criminal takes your money, phone, a lot of pride, and what dignity you had left, gets back in his car and rides away. He must have experience taking control using his weapons, becuase he got through with you in less than 3 minutes. In the same three minutes the UGA police did a lot for you too... the one catching speeders was in the middle of writing a ticket, the other found a car parked illegally.

Would you like to know the only good thing that could possibly come from it? You get to come back and write another story about gun control.

I grew up shooting guns. I have a concealed weapons permit. I will be against this ridiculous government control until my last breath.
There is a reason our parents and grandfathers didn't have the problems with schools being shot up... its because the criminals with guns knew someone out there would shoot back.


So, basically, you disagree with the writer's opinion. And in order to make your point, you tell a far-fetched hypothetical story?

I see that you skipped those days in your rhetoric class.

Look, friend, guns don't kill people; people WITH GUNS kill people.

Your "last breath?" Keep dreaming, there Robert E. Lee. The south's gonna rise again. Except that it won't because pre-Civil War era South was a hell hole.
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kell

posted 9/05/08 @ 9:48 AM EST

Author states, "there are absolutely no records indicating that permit holders are exceptionally law-abiding." Actually since there is a thorough background check on all permit holders this statement is patently false. Unless the author doesn't consider the FBI, GBI, and local sheriff's office to be trustworthy sources of determining whether someone is law-abiding. And if that is the case then this distrust of the government to protect is rationale enough to allow individuals to carry.
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CoastalDawg

posted 9/05/08 @ 11:25 AM EST

Background checks are in place to eliminate criminals from obtaining a license to carry a concealed weapon. The practice of requiring at least an elementary class to learn the proper use of the weapon seems like a reasonable requirement - after all no drivers license is issued until after the required tests have been passed. It is too late to wait until someone actually IS accosted on campus to decide that the properly licensed gun carrier might have been able to protect himself/herself. Carrying a gun however into Sanford Stadium on a Saturday is senseless and should not be allowed. Legislators must use common sense (are they those who still exhibit that?) in deciding where guns should banned. Campus overall isn't one of those places but confined areas with large crowds, many of them having consumed copious amounts of alcohol, should be restricted. The pendulum had swung way too far in favor of the criminal - now it's time to bring it back to mid swing.
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Brandon Butler

posted 9/05/08 @ 12:11 PM EST

Charles, before you write an article on concealed weapons, how about checking your facts beyond what's happening in the legislature? If you would read the law on weapons permits, it clearly states that you are not allowed to take a weapon into public events such as concerts or football games. As someone with a weapons permit, if I took my handgun into Sanford and was caught with it I would be charged with a felony and lose my permit. So, why would I carry my gun in there, especially when there are tons of cops standing around? The law also states that you are not allowed to carry if you have been drinking, which means no carrying when you are in a bar. This negates the issue of carrying downtown for a majority of people. Now, can I carry into a restaurant and not drink, of course I can. But I choose not too, because I know I'll want a drink and I understand the consequences if I get caught with my weapon while drunk.

Those who want to carry are going to do so, often without a permit. As kell pointed out, you have to go through several background checks to purchase the weapon and to have a concealed weapons license. When you purchase a handgun an FBI check is automatically completed. When you apply for a weapons permit, a complete background check of your record is done. You are fingerprinted, your information is put on file, and the FBI and GBI do an extensive check of your background to ensure that you meet the qualifications to carry a concealed weapon.

In regard to my own protection and the protection of others, I think it's wrong that I'm not allowed to carry on campus. Though I'm an employee of the university (as a TA), I'm also a doctoral student which puts me in the gray area of who can have their weapon in their car and who can't. The problem is, when I might have the opportunity to protect my life and the lives of my students and fellow employees I can't because I'm not allowed to bring my gun onto school grounds. As Hank put it, seconds count, and we can't rely on campus police to get here in seconds. By the time they arrive me and my students could be wounded or dead, when one of us could have defended our lives. The problem is we are denying law-abiding citizens the right to protect themselves when the people who want to do us harm are not going to abide by our "campus safety zone."

At the least, the law and campus rules should allow faculty, staff, and TA's to carry if they have concealed weapons licenses. I don't mind going through a mandated training course conducted by university police to do so.
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zaid

posted 9/05/08 @ 12:35 PM EST

How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.
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Evan

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:01 PM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


[QUOTE id="91f97b68-7615-4a9d-b8b4-56bc09770d6c"]How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.[/QUOTE]

I would have expected your radical left-wing B.S. to make an appearance at some point Zaid. At least the people who have been posting on this board opposing concealed carrying have some decent agruments to back it up. You come up with the insightful inquiry of "how cowardly do people have to be to want to carry guns around campus?"

Let's break that down. "How cowardly do people have to be"
Honestly, I hate to have to resort to 7th grade "Webster's defines..." examples, but I seriously think that is the only way you will get the point here. Cowardice is defined as "lacking the courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, and pain." I've never been in a similar situation, but if I had to guess, those are probably choice words that victims and witnesses of the Virginia Tech tragedy would have used to describe their experience. If any of those victims or witnesses happened to own a handgun, but did not bring it to class that day, do you think they would have done so knowing the sequence of events that would have unfolded that day? My guess: Yes
Your guess: No, because that would make them a coward, apparently

Next part: "to want to carry guns around campus"
Why not? Are you against concealed carry altogether or just on college campuses. If it is the latter, I would seriously consider re-thinking your position. I can respect the opinion of someone who is against concealed carry everywhere. However, I cannot respect the opinion of someone who thinks that college campuses are some sort of safe haven utopia where nothing bad will ever happen, therefore concealed carry should not be allowed.

So let's put it all together now.

Zaid says "how cowardly do people have to be to want to carry guns around campus?"

I hear "People who wish to protect themselves and the lives of others are cowards who do not have the courage to face danger or difficulty, despite the fact that danger and difficulty exactly describe the type of situations which would merit carrying a weapon."
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Victim

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:29 PM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


Yes, because you are superman and no one can ever hurt you. I'd bet you'd shit your pants if someone tried to rob or hurt you in some way. I'm not scared during regular school hours, but when it gets dark I am scared. I'm a female and I way barely 110 lbs. After someone attacked me I have been terrified at to walk alone. I'm sure the students at Virginia Tech wish they could have protected themselves with something. You let me know how your superhuman powers work after someone tries to attack you.
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another victim

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:48 PM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


Please don't try to politicize the deaths of the students at Virgina Tech. Its an insult to their honor and memory that you try and invoke them as a reason for the spread of guns.
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Duh

posted 9/05/08 @ 5:54 PM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


I wasn't referring to the ones who were killed dumb ass...I was referring to the ones who were close enough to the situation who wished they had a gun or something to protect themselves. If anyone went through something like that they'd want a form of protection all of the time. Like myself.
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David Mason

posted 9/05/08 @ 7:47 PM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


Zaid:
Tell the 30+ killed at Virginia Tech to "grow a pair."
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Chris

posted 9/08/08 @ 10:20 AM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


I am not a student of UGA, but last time I went up to Athens to visit some friends I noticed that a rather significant portion of the student body is denied by their genetics the option of "growing a pair."
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Glenn

posted 9/10/08 @ 1:12 PM EST

Originally posted by

zaid

 How cowardly do people ahve to be to want to carry guns around campus? Grow a pair people.


Ziad, your comments seem to follow a trend... they are all devoid of value! Why don't you take a break from Oprah and Geraldo and get some experience in the "real world". I don't deny your right to an opinion, but of what value is an opinion if there is no relevant personal experience on which to base it?
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Evan

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:08 PM EST

By the way Zaid, I'm just going to go ahead and pre-empt your usual "You don't like my opinion so you must hate me, therefore you are not a good person" statement.
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Larry Thompson

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:10 PM EST

A well armed society is an exceedingly polite society.

Blackburn has every right to his opinion; but, when they are posited on absolute lies, they have no value to anyone including him. Clearly, he has no integrity; his future as a journalist is assured.
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Laura

posted 9/07/08 @ 11:01 AM EST

A well armed society is an exceedingly polite society? Honestly?

Well, the Old West must have been a paragon of virtue. Iraq must be a shining example of gun-enforced etiquette.

Originally posted by

Larry Thompson

 A well armed society is an exceedingly polite society.

Blackburn has every right to his opinion; but, when they are posited on absolute lies, they have no value to anyone including him. Clearly, he has no integrity; his future as a journalist is assured.
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John (SCCC Member from Illinois/Colorado)

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:47 PM EST

Perhaps if the author had taken the time to do some RESEARCH, he would have discovered that CCW permit holders are especially law abiding, based on statistics from many different states (FL and TX stats are easily found). Or, perhaps if he had looked at the media packet available at concealedcampus.com he could have learned of those stats and many more.
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Fill Loowen

posted 9/05/08 @ 1:54 PM EST

Freedom haters! Terrorists want to kill your family! USA! USA! USA!
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Zack

posted 9/05/08 @ 2:05 PM EST

Unless there are enough cops to walk everyone around wherever they go on campus, there is no other way to stop a gunman from killing many victims unless the people he harms are able to adequately defend themselves. When seconds mean the difference between your survival or being a victim, cops are minutes away. If they are going to enforce the no-guns rule on campus with services such as metal detectors and security guards at them, that is fine. But since they don't use those and hence let criminals roam free unresisted while commiting their acts of violence, I would like to be able to defend myself. If we can be responsible enough to be able to move two tons of metal at speeds of over 70 miles an hour, why can we not be responsible to be able to carry around five pounds of metal for personal protection? If you actually do your research and not just blurt out your immediate feelings, you would sound smarter in your article, Mr. Blackburn.
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Fill Loowen

posted 9/05/08 @ 2:42 PM EST

Originally posted by

Zack

 ...there is no other way to stop a gunman from killing many victims unless the people he harms are able to adequately defend themselves...


Yet another example of our gendered society. Gunwomen must unite and demand equality in the pantheon of terror! USA! USA! USA! USA!
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chris

posted 9/05/08 @ 2:49 PM EST

more cops is the answer! unfortunately, last i heard, uga was cutting its budget and the ACC is, too.

i wouldn't depend on the government for any special favors as far as the cops go any time soon.
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Jim

posted 9/05/08 @ 2:50 PM EST

JUST IN CASE YOU MISSED THIS ARTICLE PUBLISHED IN THE ATHENS-BANNER HERALD LAST MAY ............

Give students the means to defend themselves

The Big Idea

By ***** **** | Commentary | Story updated at 5:09 PM on Sunday, May 18, 2008

I do not claim to have all of the answers in the security field, but I do have some relevant experience, having served four years in the U.S. Secret Service's Vice Presidential Protective Division and eight years as assistant to the special agent in charge with the Protection Squad in the Secret Service's Atlanta field office. I'm fully retired now, and am involved in no business venture. I'm sending this nonpolitical "open letter" to collegiate security personnel out of genuine, heartfelt safety concerns.

I'm aware of the tremendous burden you carry in trying to protect your colleges and universities as other public safety officials do their schools, malls, churches and other facilities. I know you're doing everything in your power to improve campus security: requesting more police officers, installing security systems, alert systems, lockdown procedures, awareness seminars, and recognition of and counseling for disturbed students, to name just a few.

However, I also believe colleges and universities are unique, for two reasons.

First, they are very high-profile, big-name targets for a lone gunman or for terrorists. Second, the great, great majority have been declared "gun-free zones," which unfortunately doesn't prevent criminals, the mentally disturbed, mass murderers or terrorists from bringing guns to your campus.

Laws that keep weapons off of higher-education campuses are a deterrent only to honest, law-abiding citizens. Those who declare a "gun-free zone" have a moral and legal obligation to make it so, but they simply do not possess the "means" to actually accomplish that goal. I believe that is an unconscionable affront to those who are defenseless.

That said, I sadly fear that dark episodes in our nation's history such as the Virginia Tech shootings are not over, and may just be getting started. My main concern is that when a large group of students find themselves trapped in a classroom with an active shooter killing them at random, all of the best, most well-intentioned, high-budget efforts at security are of no use to them. When all of your best efforts have been thwarted, students are confronted with the choices of hiding under a desk, feigning death, begging for mercy or rushing an armed attacker.

The real question at that moment is: What is the "security plan" when students need it most, when it has become a matter of life and death and they are defenseless because police officers are still seconds or even minutes away?

With that in mind, I ask you to take steps to legally and administratively adopt these or similar additional security measures:

Develop an ongoing course regarding campus security for elective credit. The course should cover all aspects of campus security and should include firearms safety, qualification, concealed carry methods, use of force law and other relevant issues.

Restrict the course to students over 21 (including military veterans and former police officers) who possess valid carry permits. Include faculty, staff, administrators, maintenance personnel and others who also possess valid carry permits.

Consider having the course meet the requirements for certification as a "private security officer" under the laws of your state.

Allow those students who successfully pass the course to carry on campus. Annual requalification is certainly an option.

Set up an identification system should an incident occur. (Note: This is not an insurmountable issue. Uniformed police officers confront undercover, off-duty and retired local, state and federal officers every day).

Adoption of these or similar procedures or policies will, over time, provide a cadre of trained, responsible individuals who can be the first line of defense in life-or-death situations and who will serve as an additional deterrent to those who would bring evil to your campus.

I realize this is a politically charged issue where emotion often takes precedence over reason, logic and facts. I also realize those of you who may openly or secretly agree with me will have strong opposition. I seek only to help students, faculty and others when they are at their most vulnerable - when they are being killed with no means to resist. We all know it can happen again.

In closing, I sincerely hope my efforts will be at least partially successful. Will my suggestion save every life? No. But I believe it will save many, and that is worth the effort of this letter.

EDITOR'S NOTE: The author of this piece - an open letter to public safety directors at institutions of higher education - is a resident of the metropolitan Atlanta community of Johns Creek. A 1972 graduate of the University of Georgia with a bachelor's degree in business administration, he served in the Marine Corps as a scout-sniper in Vietnam in 1967-68. He worked with the Internal Revenue Service's Criminal Investigation Division, and spent 27 years with the U.S. Secret Service and four years with the Federal Air Marshal Service.
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Jim Embry

posted 9/05/08 @ 4:30 PM EST

I'm glad that the pro-self defense side came out to comment on this. Now if we could just get some equal time on the actual paper.
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tilpatod

posted 9/05/08 @ 5:25 PM EST

Another question I have never heard an answer to from gun-control advocates:
One of the main arguments used for weapons bans, such as in this column, is that the danger with guns everywhere is always that someone will flip out and go on a rampage, kill a bunch of folks and then kill themselves. Ergo, they say, we should remove guns from the general populations so these shooting rampages can't happen, and the police will be armed and ready to protect us if something does. But what if a policeman "flips out" and goes on a rampage? There won't be anyone to stop them, until another officer can get nearby. It's not like there are certain people who are just immune to murderous rages, and they become police. By leaving only cops with guns, we are staking a lot in their ability to protect us, when we could each just protect ourselves instead.
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stephen b

posted 9/06/08 @ 1:49 AM EST

The author believes I need to undergo training to exercise my God given and constitutionally protected right? Hmm.... Where is his free speech license, and being a permit holder and a student I pray this new push for my rights passes.

Luke 22:36
Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.
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Laura

posted 9/07/08 @ 11:05 AM EST

Interesting to quote from Luke. I know you've read farther...to Gethsemane. Peter was rebuked by Christ for using his sword against the mob. Don't try to use the Bible to support gun rights.

Originally posted by

stephen b

 The author believes I need to undergo training to exercise my God given and constitutionally protected right? Hmm.... Where is his free speech license, and being a permit holder and a student I pray this new push for my rights passes.

Luke 22:36
Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.
Post a reply to this comment

Carl

posted 9/06/08 @ 2:06 AM EST

I can understand how your youthful nievetie could lead you to think that a police officer will be instantly available if some thugs decide to deprive you of your wallet and your life. However, in the real world, the average act of violence takes only seconds while the average police response time is measured in minutes.

Many years ago (I am old enough to be your father,)having a firearm on me saved me from a severe beating and possibly death at the hands of three goons. Not a shot was fired, but the incident forged my belief that I am responsible for my own defense.

As a student at one of our state's fine colleges, the current law has effectively disarmed me and left me defenseless. I am an adult with grown children of my own, a veteran and a busy person whose day includes a trip to the campus to take classes. I cannot carry my firearm on my person (the safest place for it to be,) and I cannot leave it in my vehicle.

As a result, my chosen form of defense must stay at home on the days I have class.

Do you really think that you, me, and the student body are safer because I am unarmed? Do you really think someone intent on harming students will obey the law like I do? Can you grasp the concept that armed, adult students like myself might just be a deterrent to campus shootings?

Anywhere that the law-abiding general public is disarmed, criminals know they can ply their trade without fear of armed resistance.

In your great wisdom, how would you suggest I protect myself and my family on the days that my travels take me to school?
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Author of Athens Article

posted 9/06/08 @ 8:16 AM EST

To stephen b:

I don't disagree with you (i.e., "Free men don't ask permission to protect themselves.")

However, sometimes we have to compromise in order to win down the road. A college or university is really not "public" property and any court is going to uphold certain restrictions there (as they would restrictions you choose to have in your home).

I'm merely proposing steps in the right direction.
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stephen b

posted 9/06/08 @ 5:36 PM EST

Originally posted by

Author of Athens Article

 To stephen b:

I don't disagree with you (i.e., "Free men don't ask permission to protect themselves.")

However, sometimes we have to compromise in order to win down the road. A college or university is really not "public" property and any court is going to uphold certain restrictions there (as they would restrictions you choose to have in your home).

I'm merely proposing steps in the right direction.





Hmmm.. i wonder why i pay taxes for the school system???? and everyone in ga pays property taxes excepts those in public housing. even the renters do(as the taxes are passed on by the home owner)

by the state refusing to allow me to carry they are violating my second amendment rights along with my !st because im ordered by Christ to be armed. I under stand court house and police stations(they disarm everyone and provide direct protection)


But if we look to New Hampshire we see that they have nearly no infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, you can take a gun into the state building in police station(except in the secure areas) and courthouses are off limits and guess what they have low crime and its not a problem.

which means to have and take with you not leave at home.

then we must look to utah the state must protect the individuals right to bear arms, therefore campus carry must be allowed for any eligible individual.

what you sir are doing is forcing you opinion of false security on others and let us not forget

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin

so your misguided attempt at false security by giving up a liberty you will deserve neither(you will be unarmed at the hands of a criminal)and lose both have no security and liberty.

this page is called red and black, but im trying to lay it out for you in black and white
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Jason

posted 9/06/08 @ 11:40 AM EST

I can't believe that you would put your life in the hands of the university police. These people can't even stop drunk drivers, much less a violent gunman. Just look at Virginia Tech. How effective were campus security officials there when all hell actually did break loose for once?

When you place anti-gun laws on law-abiding citizens, who will have guns? (In case you don't know -- and I don't think you do -- criminals will have them.)

Let's face it. Gun control has been about as effective at keeping guns out of the hands of criminals as the war on terror has been at removing violence from the Middle East or as the War on Drugs has been at removing drugs from our streets.

If you want people to be safe, let lisenced gun-owners carry their weapons.
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Jason

posted 9/06/08 @ 11:46 AM EST

Gun control laws have been as effective at keeping guns out of the hands of killers as the War on Terror has been at removing violence in the Middle East or as the War on Drugs has been at removing Cocaine from our streets.

Take some responsibility for yourself.
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Author of Athens Article

posted 9/06/08 @ 6:29 PM EST

To stephen b:

We are a nation of laws. We have the freedom of speech to argue about or change those laws as our Republic allows. When we lose that - it's anarchy.

If the recent Supreme Court decision regarding guns in D.C. had gone the other way I would have been appalled and worked for a Constitutional Amendment but I would obey the law.

Also, since you quote scripture don't forget "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's."
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stephen b

posted 9/06/08 @ 10:49 PM EST

Originally posted by

Author of Athens Article

 To stephen b:

We are a nation of laws. We have the freedom of speech to argue about or change those laws as our Republic allows. When we lose that - it's anarchy.

If the recent Supreme Court decision regarding guns in D.C. had gone the other way I would have been appalled and worked for a Constitutional Amendment but I would obey the law.

Also, since you quote scripture don't forget "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's."



Im am a free man, i owe nothing to ceasar. all i earn is gods and mine second to do as i please. ;)

see the thing is the right to carry is an inalienable right, it is not something the majority can impose on me. we are a nation of laws, and govt can only exist with the
consent of the goverened.
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Jim

posted 9/07/08 @ 7:47 AM EST

To stephen b:

If you owe "nothing" to Caesar, then you should be careful quoting scripture as you are not obeying it.

Anarchy is a terrible thing. Look it up.

I wish you well ................. Adieu
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bandofotters

posted 9/09/08 @ 12:23 PM EST

Originally posted by

Jim

 To stephen b:

If you owe "nothing" to Caesar, then you should be careful quoting scripture as you are not obeying it.

Anarchy is a terrible thing. Look it up.

I wish you well ................. Adieu



The first organized police service was established in Boston in 1838. So the establishment of this country in 1798 was a terrible thing because it promoted anarchy? You do know that anarchy is not a synonym for "self-defense", correct? Maybe you should look it up then apply it correctly (or not at all, in this case).
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bandofotters

posted 9/09/08 @ 12:31 PM EST

Originally posted by

Jim

 To stephen b:

If you owe "nothing" to Caesar, then you should be careful quoting scripture as you are not obeying it.

Anarchy is a terrible thing. Look it up.

I wish you well ................. Adieu



Did I fat-finger "1798" instead of "1789"?
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TBILL

posted 9/08/08 @ 1:14 PM EST

I hate to burst a little boy's bubble, but as a parent and grandparent, I feel I must. Young man, it is easy to speak from a child's perfect world, where Mommy and Daddy protect us from bad guys, but it is time to GROW UP. Your safety at college is mearly a matter or dollars and cents to the administration, nothing more or less. The protection of students is a cost incurred by the school and this cost is carefully calculated as risk management, where the likelyhood of an attack on a student and the cost to the University is measured against the cost of protecting the student. If the risk to the University to protect you costs more than the cost to let you be attacked, guess who wins?

My boy, learn the first rule of business and life "Money Talks" and the University is all about making money. This "Gun Free" crap is a publicity tactic, carefully calculated as a "Feel Good" for your Mommy and Daddy, so they will send their little darling and their money to the "Safe University". Nothing more, nothing less matters to the University.

I suggest more time in the library researching the birth of this Nation and the ideals brought forth by it's founders. The idea of "Personal Responsibility" and limits on the governments power over the individual citizen seem to be the overiding theme. You, not the government or the University, are responsible for your personal safety and if you think otherwise I suggest you go to the Law library and research the U.S. Supreme court decision of DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services. which held the Constitution does not require goverment to protect citizens from criminal harm.

If you don't want to protect yourself and are happy with the protection provided by the University, good luck with that, but don't presume to rob your fellow students, through your naivite, of their right to defend themselves. I believe one of your fellow students pointed out being intoxicated with a firearm is already illegal, carrying a firearms without a license is illegal. brandishing a firearm is illegal, murder is illegal, rape is illegal, and on we go. Making a act illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, criminals don't give a rat's about what's legal or illegal. Making their intended victims more available and less able to defend themselves is a great idea for them. They really like it when uninformed alarmists like yourself come out on their behalf.

Grow up already and look at the real world you'll be living in when Mommy and Daddy aren't around to kiss your boo boos. There are thieves, drug-addicts, rapists, murders, terrorists and all assorted types who will kill you for pocket change or just because they think you'll make a nice victim. Those of us who have lived out here in the real world don't want to be big brave movie heros, we just want the government to allow us to defend our God-given right to life and it's defense. The writer's of the Bill of Rights weren't granting the right to "Bear Arms" they were protecting it because they knew sooner or later the government would start being more about itsself than the people and an armed citizenry was and is the last best defense against such circumstances. Just ask the Jewish people who survived the Holocaust, they'll tell you why every adult citizen of Israel is trained and armed. Criminals are real, terrorists are real, and governments can become dictatorships, and all rejoice and flourish if the people let their rights be removed in the name of "Public Safety".

It's not the licensed legally armed citizen you should fear, we got the license because we are law-abiding, the folks who'll do you harm don't have a license, they've got a thing called a "Criminal Record" and you'll be just a dim memory after they get what they want from you.
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Saracuda

posted 9/08/08 @ 1:27 PM EST

Originally posted by

TBILL

 I hate to burst a little boy's bubble, but as a parent and grandparent, I feel I must. Young man, it is easy to speak from a child's perfect world, where Mommy and Daddy protect us from bad guys, but it is time to GROW UP. Your safety at college is mearly a matter or dollars and cents to the administration, nothing more or less. The protection of students is a cost incurred by the school and this cost is carefully calculated as risk management, where the likelyhood of an attack on a student and the cost to the University is measured against the cost of protecting the student. If the risk to the University to protect you costs more than the cost to let you be attacked, guess who wins?

My boy, learn the first rule of business and life "Money Talks" and the University is all about making money. This "Gun Free" crap is a publicity tactic, carefully calculated as a "Feel Good" for your Mommy and Daddy, so they will send their little darling and their money to the "Safe University". Nothing more, nothing less matters to the University.

I suggest more time in the library researching the birth of this Nation and the ideals brought forth by it's founders. The idea of "Personal Responsibility" and limits on the governments power over the individual citizen seem to be the overiding theme. You, not the government or the University, are responsible for your personal safety and if you think otherwise I suggest you go to the Law library and research the U.S. Supreme court decision of DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services. which held the Constitution does not require goverment to protect citizens from criminal harm.

If you don't want to protect yourself and are happy with the protection provided by the University, good luck with that, but don't presume to rob your fellow students, through your naivite, of their right to defend themselves. I believe one of your fellow students pointed out being intoxicated with a firearm is already illegal, carrying a firearms without a license is illegal. brandishing a firearm is illegal, murder is illegal, rape is illegal, and on we go. Making a act illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, criminals don't give a rat's about what's legal or illegal. Making their intended victims more available and less able to defend themselves is a great idea for them. They really like it when uninformed alarmists like yourself come out on their behalf.

Grow up already and look at the real world you'll be living in when Mommy and Daddy aren't around to kiss your boo boos. There are thieves, drug-addicts, rapists, murders, terrorists and all assorted types who will kill you for pocket change or just because they think you'll make a nice victim. Those of us who have lived out here in the real world don't want to be big brave movie heros, we just want the government to allow us to defend our God-given right to life and it's defense. The writer's of the Bill of Rights weren't granting the right to "Bear Arms" they were protecting it because they knew sooner or later the government would start being more about itsself than the people and an armed citizenry was and is the last best defense against such circumstances. Just ask the Jewish people who survived the Holocaust, they'll tell you why every adult citizen of Israel is trained and armed. Criminals are real, terrorists are real, and governments can become dictatorships, and all rejoice and flourish if the people let their rights be removed in the name of "Public Safety".

It's not the licensed legally armed citizen you should fear, we got the license because we are law-abiding, the folks who'll do you harm don't have a license, they've got a thing called a "Criminal Record" and you'll be just a dim memory after they get what they want from you.


USA! USA! USA! USA! Freedom haters!!!!!!
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CoastalCat

posted 9/08/08 @ 1:23 PM EST

This entire conversation is misguided. Guns don't kill people; bullets do. Rather than debating the pettiness of concealed weapons, why don't we talk about concealed bullets? Concealed bullets are agents of death. I challenge any of you to provide evidence indicating a death caused by concealed guns--especially our venerable cyber grandpa TBILL.

God...what a bunch of morons.
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bandofotters

posted 9/09/08 @ 12:28 PM EST

Originally posted by

CoastalCat

 This entire conversation is misguided. Guns don't kill people; bullets do. Rather than debating the pettiness of concealed weapons, why don't we talk about concealed bullets? Concealed bullets are agents of death. I challenge any of you to provide evidence indicating a death caused by concealed guns--especially our venerable cyber grandpa TBILL.

God...what a bunch of morons.


I have to agree with you. The proof is readily available in the movie, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". Each bullet had its own personality while the gun was simply an inanimate object. The key is to find the correct mix of bullets such that they all get along.
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Good Grief

posted 9/08/08 @ 7:19 PM EST

For the last time people....guns don't kill people....they can't fire unless the person pulls the trigger. It is the people who kill. The people who are going to kill will kill regardless of the law. Well, you gun control people keep on practicing your karate chop and let me know how it works for you:)
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Jay

posted 9/08/08 @ 10:21 PM EST

Originally posted by

Good Grief

 For the last time people....guns don't kill people....they can't fire unless the person pulls the trigger. It is the people who kill. The people who are going to kill will kill regardless of the law. Well, you gun control people keep on practicing your karate chop and let me know how it works for you:)


Typically ignorant and uniformed.

That old saw "Guns don't kill people, etc, etc" is not only demonstrably untrue, but also a kind of logical fallacy. Yes, guns do indeed kill people--people with GUNS KILL PEOPLE. How hard is that to understand?
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zaid

posted 9/08/08 @ 10:58 PM EST

Originally posted by

Good Grief

 For the last time people....guns don't kill people....they can't fire unless the person pulls the trigger. It is the people who kill. The people who are going to kill will kill regardless of the law. Well, you gun control people keep on practicing your karate chop and let me know how it works for you:)


Yeah, but take some sociology. Environments affect people and gun presence increases crime as a matter of course.
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