The Red and Black

Originally posted by

BC

to think that Tibet would go back to surfdom is preposterous. Tibet was living in the 19th century when China invaded... things have changed a bit... there is a choice between oppressive rule of China and a new Tibetan democracy

The author is asking the Tibet Independence groups to give the details of their view of a future Tibet, other than just shouting "Free Tibet", "Tibet Independence", "autonomy", or "a new Tibetan democracy" without substance. That's a very fair request.

In my view, as long as they still insist to choose the Dalai Lama as their political leader and a religious god-king, that's a return to theocracy of the old days.

I strongly doubt that nowadays the Free Tibet movement is not setting a goal of returning to their homeland of Tibet. Rather they are more interested in gaining support in the western countries and spreading their religion to the world.

Originally posted by

BC

to think that Tibet would go back to surfdom is preposterous. Tibet was living in the 19th century when China invaded... things have changed a bit... there is a choice between oppressive rule of China and a new Tibetan democracy

from wiki:
...
Already in 1725 two high Chinese commissioners had been appointed to control the temporal affairs of the country.[35]In 1751, the Manchu (Qing) Emperor Qianlong established the Dalai Lama as both the spiritual leader and political leader of Tibet who lead a government (Kashag) with four Kalöns in it.[2]...

Originally posted by

BC

to think that Tibet would go back to serfdom is preposterous. Tibet was living in the 19th century when China invaded... things have changed a bit... there is a choice between oppressive rule of China and a new Tibetan democracy

Let me streamline the modern Tibet history from a Chinese point of view, just as a reference. Let the readers decide if this view makes more sense and reflects more truth.

As a background, Tibet has been part of China for centuries. Because of its remote location and harsh environment, the central government's control over the region was not always firm, a common situation for all the remote Chinese provinces in ancient time, regardless of their ethnic composition. Until 1959, Tibet had been a serfdom social system under cruel theocracy leadership. To be fair, the social system of the rest of China during the dynasty period was not far better compared with that of Tibet.

In 1911, China's last dynasty, the Qing Empire, was replaced by China's first republic, The Republic of China (RC). It would've been the first time for all the Chinese to taste the modern, humanitary social system. However, this new republic was so weak to take care of itself even at China's heartland, barely able to prevent the country from being fully occupied by Japan, let along reform the cruel social system in the remote Tibet.

In 1949, the communists finally won China's civil war and established the People's Republic of China (PRC). It now had a much stronger armed force to defend the country against any foreign invasion. So the central government had a chance, the first time for the Chinese in more than 100 years, to focus on the country's internal problems. A social reform that Liberates the poor Tibetans from the cruel, eye gouging serfdom is a must, they believed, which started around 1957. It was indeed largely welcomed by the poors in Tibet.

The Tibetan armed rebelling in 1959 was lead by some landlords and lamas who've lost their land, slaves and all the privileges during the reform. They were followed mainly by their proteges and the remaining of their private army. There were foreign aids available as well. The rebelling was not about religious freedom or culture preservation, but simply getting back the lost powers. It was quite easily and quickly put down, at least partly because most of the local Tibetan mass, who were poor and landless under their old time rulers, thus the beneficiary of the reform, did not provide much support to the rebels.

Dalai, 22 years old at the time, was believed not being involved in the planning of the 1959 rebelling, but was convinced somehow that an severe "post autumn" punishment from the communist government will come to him, then decided to run away with the defeating rebels. The majority of that group and their descendants are now living in Dharamshala, India, and many of them eventually moved to foreign countries, mostly in North America. They formed today's oversea Tibetan communities.

Being an exile, Dalai began to receive funds from and corporate with foreign intelligence organizations in the 1960s. They worked on joint operations, including creating spy network inside Tibet, training gorilla troops lead by one of Dalai's elder brothers, weapon, radio station, propaganda leaflet parachuting. The governmental funds and joint operations died out after 1972 when China and America started to normalize their diplomatic tie. Since then, Dalai has gradually changed his tone from the tough line Tibet Independence to a moderate "true autonomy".

During the "cultural revolution" from 1966 to 1976, religious freedom was all be not existing in China. Hundrerds of churchs, mosques, monastries were closed or even destoried, People attached to all kinds religions were froced to abandan their beliefs. Beating and humiliating a clergy was not rare. Being noted though, that it is not presuasive to use the damaging results upon Tibens from the cultural revolution as an evidence to prove that "Tibetans are being treated brutally by the Han Chinese". Neither the Tibetans as an ethnic group, nor the Tibetan Buddhism as a religion, was singled out or received extra harsh treatment during that destartous period. An unbiased view would be, the Chinese, including Tibetans, suffered heavily from the cultural revolution.

For the past two decades, Dalai has been openly urging the Chinese government to accept his "middle way" concept and preserve the unique Tibetan culture. However, during the close-door meetings between representatives of Dalai and Chinese government, Dalai defined his "truly autonomic Tibet" as a region that covers one quarter of the entire Chinese territory, including today's TAR and a vast area in the neighboring provinces as long as there exists some Tibetan population. He also demanded that people other than ethnic Tibetans should be moved out of this greater Tibet region. His government will have the total control over the region's sectarian and religious affairs. No Chinese army will be allowed in the region even though it is bordering with several foreign countries. The Chinese government considered it not a true autonomy, but a de-facto independence, thus rejected Dalai's proposal.

Today, Dalai still holds his dual title as both the religious leader of the Tibetan Buddhism and the political leader of the "Tibet-government-in-exile", which technically makes his mini state in Dhramshala a theocracy of the 21th century.

Someone maght dispute the ancient history part. They believe that Tibet was independent for most of its history, only briefly "surrendered to China" from time to time when the Chinese military might was high. But there is hardly any evidence to prove that claim except words from activists of Tibet Independence. People will not find a world map, no matter when and where published, that had Tibet marked as a state. There is no country, in the past or today, ever recognizes Tibet as a sovereign country, had or has diplomatic relation with it. Only Britain tried that in the 1930's when India was still its colony. But looking at the official documents from British government reveals that there was never a "Tibet state" as the result. On the other hand, none of the Chinese governments, weak or strong, empire or republic, democratic or dictatorship, traced all the way back to the Yuan Dynasty in the 13th century, had ever drop their claim of Tibet being part of China's territory.

Originally posted by

Chris

It is instructive to note that today the Tibetan government-in-exile is a democracy ....

This statement does not hold, as long as the Dalai Lama remains their political leader at the same time their religous god-king. Similarly, we don't call Vatican a democracy. (Please note that I am not equaling non-democracy to evil.)

Originally posted by

Christiane Woodard

I have friends who are Lhasa now.It is not possible to reach anyone there because all telephone lines have been cut and mobilephones confiscatet in house to house searches.Lots of people were killed in the uprising,many more injured , we hear they were shooting from helicopters at Tibetan demonstraters.We are not talking about how things were in 1950...all of china was suffering badly in those days as well.Kids were forced to kill their own parents , denounce their friends and lots of people died. Now is the year 2008 and not only the Tibetans are tired of being gagged and bound by the chinese goverment....also a lot of chinese are begging for more feedom and justice..How come China is so afraid of journalists and for example amnesty international ??

Better verify the info before spreading rumors. If you can't reach your friends in Lhasa now, where did you get all these stories? Attacking the other side without basis would only hurt your argument.

Originally posted by

Christiane Woodard

I have friends who are Lhasa now.It is not possible to reach anyone there because all telephone lines have been cut and mobilephones confiscatet in house to house searches.Lots of people were killed in the uprising,many more injured , we hear they were shooting from helicopters at Tibetan demonstraters.We are not talking about how things were in 1950...all of china was suffering badly in those days as well.Kids were forced to kill their own parents , denounce their friends and lots of people died. Now is the year 2008 and not only the Tibetans are tired of being gagged and bound by the chinese goverment....also a lot of chinese are begging for more feedom and justice..How come China is so afraid of journalists and for example amnesty international ??

Come on, it is already April 2th. Since all the connections were cut as you said in Tibet, how did you know these stories? There were journalists in Tibet and you can read their reports.

Originally posted by

Sean

I always respected the Dalai Lama as a preacher for peace and compassion. I was completely shocked 10 years ago when I came across with an article on www.salon.com/news/1998/07/13news.html

I urge everyone interested in the Dalai Lama read this. It shows a side we don't often see in the major media.

This is a comment directed at the article posted in salon.

It irks me beyond all belief to read "Oriental" religions.

Not because of the use of th word "oriental" but due to the fact that Buddhism originated in India. South Asia. Most commonly NOT known as the Orient.

That's my qualm here.

[quote]The "Orient" is a term historically used in Western culture to refer to Asia. To describe a person as an Oriental has since the early 1970s been considered somewhat impolite and politically incorrect in the United States (the term Asian is used widely instead), but the term Oriental does not carry any such connotations in the UK, where the word Asian commonly refers to people of Indian/Bangladeshi/Pakistani/Sri Lankan descent (these people are called South Asians in the United States).[/quote]

Originally posted by

Ben

And the Dali Lama was a BOY when China invaded. Don't forget that. He never had an opportunity to make any changes.

but what makes you think he will make changes assuming the PRC never went into tibet? of course, dalai and his govt in exile can make hypothetical concessions now, but that's a rhetoric. my point is that we should not blindly support tibet independence. we should support the people of tibet, not the ex-rulers who want their power back.

first of all, you assumed i supported the PRC because my last name is yao. that is pure ignorance number.

for your info, i am from taiwan. i am very much against the PRC and their oppressive regime. i never said tibet is better now that it is in PRC hands. you assumed that. i never once supported PRC propaganda nor approve chinese activities in tibet.

it is because of people like you that made me write this article (if you actually read it). you can say the dalai lama is a peaceful man, and he wants changes IF he was still in charge of tibet. that sounds great, but that's just spectating changes that has not happened yet. millions of chinese thought the PRC was going to liberate them, and look what happened.

before you argue back, please read my article. i am simply stating tibet was not free prior to PRC annexation. i was stating that westerners (such as yourself) hypocritically support a theocracy while practicing your hard-fought freedoms in a democracy. lastly, i was stating that people like you should do some damn research before you argue, and wikipedia is not valid source.

Originally posted by

Nyima

Kevin, if one was to believe that old Tibet is indeed the image projected by present day Chinese history, why did the communists when they first came to "Peacefully Liberate" Tibet failed to mention anything about the "serfs"?

I hope you are aware of the "17 point agreement" that was forced onto the Tibetans by the Chinese?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_Point_Agreement_for_the_Peaceful_Liberation_of_Tibet
Not a mention of the serfs!

Go meet any Tibetan and then ask. If you cannot believe any random Tibetan about the life prior and life under China, then you are simply being a mouthpiece for an authoritarian regime of PRC.