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Israel has right to protect its citizens

Abstract:
I am the president of Dawgs for Israel, the University's pro-Israel group. After reading the biased articles concerning Israel printed in Monday's paper, I feel it is important to share some relevant facts with the campus. In 2005, in an effort for peace, Israel voluntarily withdrew from the Gaza Strip, disrupting the lives of many Israeli civilians who lived there, so that Gaza would be completely free of any Israeli presence....

Barry Bonds

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:02 AM EST

Wow...I never knew you could pile up a bunch of lies, claim they are a bunch of facts, and then have the R & B print it. This is absolutely preposterous. Rather than claiming to be the pro-israeli group, you should call yourself the pro-israeli shameless and exploitative propaganda whore.

1) There was no complete withdrawal; israel removed its colonies (8,000 zionists and their military protection) out from in between over 1 million Palestinians. The removal included the destruction of all buildings and farms they left behind and a complete closure of Gaza. Israel maintained control (again emphasizing no complete withdrawal) of all borders, air space, and often sent in their military. Gaza -the most densely populated pice of land on Earth (not so easy to turn into a thriving metropolis or into the bread basket)- became an open air-prison.

2) All the facts indicate Hamas did comply with the cease-fire, israel violated the ceasefire first, and that efforts to renew the ceasefire by Hamas were rejected by israel who wanted to prove that they were "tough" by using military action before an upcoming election.(http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310)

3) Israel stops attacks for hours daily?!?! Does that deserve a hand clap?!?! The last time they allowed UN aid enter they decided to blow up those same aid trucks on the same day. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95J82Q00)

You just completely lied in 98% of that article. It was completely your opinion twisted with lies to attempt to justify israeli war crimes. I can't possibly go point by point b/c everything in your piece is a lie. I don't even know if I believe your name is Karlee anymore...too pretty a name to be attached to such ugly lies.
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Barry Bonds

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:10 AM EST

"President Bush, President-elect Obama, along with almost 400 other U.S. government officials have given their support to Israel..."

Obama has not spoken out on the current massacre in Gaza, and you could have supplanted this list by simply saying "The US Government". Because the truth is our politicians are subservient to the israeli lobby, israeli money, and ultimately israel the jewish state. We are the only country in the world that stands opposed to a cease-fire. It is this ignorant type of blind support for israel's unjust, racist military occupation that Obama supporters pray will change with the era of Hope. israel knew it had the dumb-witted support of the Bush administration and it has taken advantage of his lame duck presidency to kill as many Gazans as possible for Obama gets in office.

The solution to ending this conflict is preventing silly girls like you from lying to the American public. Are you not ashamed of yourself?
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:25 AM EST

dido Barry.

I am guessing if it is in the opinions section, it does not have to comply with standards of journalistic integrity...nor is it subject to a fact check by the paper's editors (being she does claim to use facts).

However this is the journalism that Palestinians face in the US. Lies on top of lies and deception and misleading rhetoric now synonymous with the jewish state to help justify the monstrosity of the israeli massacre in Gaza. God help the people of the region find peace...God help Karl find his sanity. This is a university paper. We are smart enough to reject the face value of your lies.
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Sami

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:45 AM EST

Israeli's have to run to bomb shelters when they hear the alarms...poor guys.

Palestinians have no bomb shelters! Pass all the leaflets you want to, they are meaningless as long as the innocent civilians are trapped in Gaza. Didn't the Nazi's pass out leaflets as well warning of future death and destruction! How horrific to know your village will be bombed and you have no where to go.

Hamas also does not aim their rockets at civilians...their rockets have no aim. Thats why they often fall in open land. of the 6,000 you claim to have been launched in the last 7 years, less than 10 people have been killed by them. On the other hand the death toll in Gaza is nearing 1,000, and the wounded is over 4,000...and that isnt a 7 year span- it is 17 days.
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Sami

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:48 AM EST

This is a news report showing how these leaflets work:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009112184144840675.html

please copy and paste and learn.
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Winslo

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:58 AM EST

Karlee:

You did a great job in your article. However, I guess you already know this.

You are dealing with brainwashed ideologues who absolutely cannot be bargained with anymore than you can bargain with cancer - it must be cut out!
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 10:25 AM EST

Originally posted by

Winslo

 Karlee:

You did a great job in your article. However, I guess you already know this.

You are dealing with brainwashed ideologues who absolutely cannot be bargained with anymore than you can bargain with cancer - it must be cut out!


Yes, she did a great job in deceiving her readers. And you are right Winso, Truth behind the side for a halt of violence will not bargain with the lies used to perpetuate further violence and instability.

Israel has a mighty army. One of the most powerful armies in the world. However after 60 years of occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people, what do they have to show for it? As if 2006 didn't prove this, israel's mighty army also happens to be the most impotent army in the history of our world. You cannot crush a just cause with military power. israel's leaders and supporters are ignorant for not learning from history. Negotiate as equals, rather than oppress as superiors.

End the blockade, end the occupation, end the apartheid of the jewish state.
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tyler

posted 1/13/09 @ 10:26 AM EST

Since when is it controversial for a sovereign liberal democracy to protect its citizens from years of constant attack?

Karlee clearly highlights the starkest contrast between Hamas militants and the Israeli Defense Forces. Hamas aims to win the war of public relations by inflating the number of civilian deaths, (especially their own citizens) while Israeli gunfire is aimed at Hamas militants in order to stop the ongoing bloodshed that has lasted for years.

If the Palestinians stopped trying to win the battle of propaganda, they could build a better life for themselves alongside a peaceful Israel.

If they are serious about making strides toward peace or a viable two-state solution (which they are obviously not as they chose to elect a terrorist organization--Hamas--to govern them) Palestinians would stop wasting their money on weapons to attack Israel and instead use it on infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc. Gazans deserve to live in peace but it is Hamas that is responsible for the current crisis and it will not end without their destruction.
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 10:36 AM EST

Originally posted by

tyler

 Since when is it controversial for a sovereign liberal democracy to protect its citizens from years of constant attack?

Karlee clearly highlights the starkest contrast between Hamas militants and the Israeli Defense Forces. Hamas aims to win the war of public relations by inflating the number of civilian deaths, (especially their own citizens) while Israeli gunfire is aimed at Hamas militants in order to stop the ongoing bloodshed that has lasted for years.

If the Palestinians stopped trying to win the battle of propaganda, they could build a better life for themselves alongside a peaceful Israel.

If they are serious about making strides toward peace or a viable two-state solution (which they are obviously not as they chose to elect a terrorist organization--Hamas--to govern them) Palestinians would stop wasting their money on weapons to attack Israel and instead use it on infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc. Gazans deserve to live in peace but it is Hamas that is responsible for the current crisis and it will not end without their destruction.




You cannot blame one party for a war idiot. Why does no israeli mention the nearly 2 year long military blockade on Gaza before any missiles were fired in the post Hamas government. Gaza has been starved into poverty, with over half of its population unemployed, and over 80% of its population living under the poverty level, and over 80% of its population totally dependent on the UN for survival.

This situation of desperation was created by racist israeli policies. Now israel controls all the trade into gaza, gaza's fuel, gaza's food, gaza's electricity, gaza's air space, gaza's borders, and retains the right to enter gaza at any point to demolish more lives. And you blame Hamas. The only thing we can blame Hamas for is being democratically elected. Once again in America's shameful history of democracy-promotion, we have conspired with israel to ensure that democratically elected leaders that do not satisfy our interests fail.

If this country does not change course ASAP, israel will be the final nail in our coffin of legitimacy in the eyes of the world.
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Amen

posted 1/13/09 @ 11:20 AM EST

What Winslo said is completely correct. These people are as ignorant and as stubborn as their brothers in the Gaza Strip. As we are learning there, they say they want peace but clearly either are incapable of basic logical thought or (more likely) just want more war. Omar, Sami, Barry Bonds...I sincerely hope that someday you can remove your veil of ignorance and realize that Israel isn't going anywhere and that she will never yield to terroristic policies employed by a government that has no regard for human life--"We desire death as you desire life." - Fathi Hamad, Hamas parliamentarian. Don't worry, Israel more than happy to deal Hamas what they so desire.
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 12:22 PM EST

Originally posted by

Amen

 What Winslo said is completely correct.Don't worry, Israel more than happy to deal Hamas what they so desire.


Amen you happen to be as backward, stubborn, and ignorant as the extremists over seas. You proudly argue israel will gladly kill as many as it takes, ignorantly failing to realize they will never kill enough to end the resistance. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER, IT IS THE PROBLEM.

It is a shame that this zionist, racist, extreme ideology has been masked in America as actually reasonable rhetoric. As long as you desire war, then you will never achieve peace. israel is the initial wrong of the region. We will look back years form now and realize creating and maintaining a jewish state was one of the worst crimes ever perpetuated by Western governments. As soon as we realize this, recognize this, and compensate the Palestinians for this injustice, then we maybe able to move towards peace. Until then, Im sorry Amen cannot realize that neither side will give in; Palestinians will not give in to israeli terror tactics of war.
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Hazman

posted 1/13/09 @ 11:40 AM EST

No matter how many primitive rockets have been fired into Israel, in defense of Palestine, the casualty figures tell the story. Israel Disproportionately retaliated killing 900 Palestinians, most of them civilians including hundreds of children. On the Israeli side a dozen people have been killed, at least 9-10 of them soldiers. Such blatant disregard for human life is against International Law, not to mention the Chemical weapons (White Phosphorous) being used by Israel which is a war crime. I wonder if the writer of this article understands how this chemical burns through the skin like napalm, maybe then her views would be different.

The Brainwashing campaign I have witnessed by Zionists in this country is sickening. These are anything but facts to once again mislead the American people, first of all, Israel may have withdrawn from Gaza and removed its illegal settlers but they only widened this open air prison, they didn't end it. Israel maintained control over Gaza's air sea and land routes, continuing its genocidal occupation. Gaza and Palestine have been reduced to refugee camps lacking the most basic utilities where most Americans couldn't even imagine to live. After living under such extreme conditions for generations, I wonder how any of us would act differently, especially after the world sits by and does nothing.
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Winslo

posted 1/13/09 @ 11:47 AM EST

OMAR: Your brainwashing is showing...............

Sonar to bridge, sonar to bridge ..........
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Give me a break

posted 1/13/09 @ 12:26 PM EST

Instead of using this opportunity to cultivate the land and build a prosperous society, Hamas has used the land to create violence.

Complete closure of all borders, frequent military incursions, assassination of democratically elected leaders and police forces, destruction of all economically important infrastructure (airport, port), murder of civilians, refusal to allow medical supplies and food into the territory. Great conditions for "building a prosperous society", eh?

Since 2005, more than 6,300 rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel, aimed completely at Israeli civilians, forcing citizens of Southern Israel to live in constant fear.

One million civilians living in a huge concentration camp attempt to defend themselves using primitive home-made rockets, having been denied any legitimate means of self-defense. Since 2005, Israel has dropped thousands of tons of munitions (including banned chemical weapons such as white phosphorous) on civilian targets, including mosques, schools, and U.N. properties.

When Hamas fires rockets, Israeli citizens hear an alarm and have only 15 seconds to get into a bomb shelter.

When Israel bombs a school or a civilian apartment, Palestinians have 0 seconds to get into a bomb shelter. They have no bomb shelters, and are not permitted to escape. They are blown apart.

Even more, the rockets are becoming more high-tech and can reach longer ranges. Beersheba, one of Southern Israel's biggest cities, is now in rocket range, and has been fired on in recent days, and with the increasing technology, more and more cities and innocent people will be in range.

Israel uses 21st-century laser- and satellite guided missiles, Apache helicopters, F-16s, Abrams tanks, all payed for by the U.S. A home-made rocket can hardly be compared.


These ridiculous lies are outrageous. In the second World War, the German SS would avenge assassinations by killing local civilians at a ratio of 20:1. Israel kills about 100 Palestinian civilians for every dead Israeli soldier.

It's unbelievable that the Red and Black would print such an article. Karlee Lichtenstein should be publicly rebuked and scorned for this racist and hateful celebration of genocide.
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solution

posted 1/13/09 @ 12:30 PM EST

let iran, syria, or any other power over there deal with israel in the appropriate manner. problem solved.
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shut up

posted 1/13/09 @ 12:36 PM EST

Originally posted by

solution

 let iran, syria, or any other power over there deal with israel in the appropriate manner. problem solved.



Most intelligent comment of the day: Everyone shut the fuck up, none of you know what your talking about and your all making yourselves look like morons.
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Finally.

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:49 PM EST

Originally posted by

solution

 let iran, syria, or any other power over there deal with israel in the appropriate manner. problem solved.



Bingo. You want the middle east to stop hating us so bad??? Stop supporting Israel. Stop supplying them with weapons. Problem solved.
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Wow

posted 1/14/09 @ 8:09 PM EST

Originally posted by

solution

 Most intelligent comment of the day: Everyone shut the fuck up, none of you know what your talking about and your all making yourselves look like morons.


Says the person who cannot event get his or her grammar correct. It's "you're" for both instances. Case and point. Oh, and the cussing makes you seem really intelligent as well.
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jason

posted 1/13/09 @ 12:37 PM EST

6.4 billion people in the world...people die all the time...chill
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derek

posted 1/13/09 @ 12:46 PM EST

Originally posted by

jason

 6.4 billion people in the world...people die all the time...chill


...isn't that a quote from Hitler?
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Bryant Knight

posted 1/13/09 @ 1:27 PM EST

If Israel's actions are not genocidal, why do its high-up religious leaders advocate carpet-bombing Gaza and murdering millions of peaceful civilians, and why is this message of hatred and death being distributed in pamphlets at synagogues all throughout Israel?

(For those who think I'm exaggerating, here is the original article. It's from the Jerusalem Post, so you can be confident that it doesn't have anti-Israel bias:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull )
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dejai

posted 1/13/09 @ 1:42 PM EST

Very well stated Karlee, thank you for providing some balance to the one-sided point of view that has been presented in this rag.

Some clarifications:

Israeli RESPONDED to attacks by imposing the blockade.
Israel left behind millions of dollars worth of hot houses and equipment and buildings when it withdrew from Gaza. These were immediately destroyed by Hamas who proceeded to use the money that poured in to arm themselves for their war against Israel. The tunnels they constructed have provided a literal underground highway that supplies them with food, fuel, supplies and weapons - millions of dollars of 'imports' in fact.
Take a good look a some of the youtube videos of the indoctrination of Palestinian children by Hamas - then talk about 'peace'...

Omar states: "We will look back years form now and realize creating and maintaining a jewish state was one of the worst crimes ever perpetuated by Western government."

It's very clear where he and some of the other posters here stand - and consequently anything he says is based on his inability to accept Israel's right to exist. He and the others aren't blinded by a veil of ignorance but are motivated by a seething hatred which will only perpetuate the strife.
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 2:26 PM EST

Originally posted by

dejai

 Very well stated Karlee, thank you for providing some balance...in this rag.

Some clarifications:
The tunnels they constructed have provided a literal underground highway that supplies them with food, fuel, supplies and weapons - millions of dollars of 'imports' in fact.

Omar states: "We will look back years form now and realize creating and maintaining a jewish state was one of the worst crimes ever perpetuated by Western government."

It's very clear where he and some of the other posters here stand... He and the others aren't blinded by a veil of ignorance...


So is it illegal for Gazans to use underground tunnels to supply themselves with FOOD! That is the desperation they are faced with. Godforbid we allow them to trade and import food. Lets make it criminal for them to eat!

I stand for the truth.

Thanks for clarifying the misleading words of karlee the zionist.

Zionism = Racism.
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Alum

posted 1/13/09 @ 1:51 PM EST

Did one of the pro-Palestinian posters on here just provide a link to Al-Jazeera? Yes, he sure did. I'm guessing a video-taped execution of infidels is exhibit B?

Seriously though, as far as op-eds go in the Red and Black, this one is very tame compared to terrorist-sympathizer, Zaid Jilani.

Hamas' stated goal is NOT a Palestinian state. Rather, it is the complete destruction of Israel. No, this is not Zionist propaganda. It's straight from the horse's mouth.

Indeed, civilian deaths are a cause for concern. I understand that. However, the Palestinian moderates must stand up to Hamas if they ever truly want peace. Israel has made land concessions in the past in exchange for the promise of peace and they will do so in the future.

Another point: Iran directly funds Hamas so the motives of both these actors must be in question. Is it possible Hamas is just doing Iran's dirty work and it's the Palestinians who are suffering?
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 2:20 PM EST

Originally posted by

Alum

 Did one of the pro-Palestinian posters on here just provide a link to Al-Jazeera? Yes, he sure did.

Seriously though, as far as op-eds go in the Red and Black, this one is very tame compared to terrorist-sympathizer, Zaid Jilani.

Indeed, civilian deaths are a cause for concern. I understand that. However, the Palestinian moderates must stand up to Hamas if they ever truly want peace.

Another point: Iran directly funds Hamas so the motives of both these actors must be in question.



Is there something wrong with Al-Jazeera? Do you know any other credible news source that the israeli military machine has allowed into Gaza to document what it is they are doing? No, b/c israel doesnt want anyone to see their war crimes first hand.

Is the "terrorist bar" what we are measuring Karlee by now? Compared to a terrorist she may not be as deranged, but she is still a deceptive liar.

The moderates have failed at achieving peace with israel, not Hamas. Even Hamas' attempt at moderation failed with israel. israel has no respect for moderation, thus it is natural for the moderates to try more extreme tactics.

And Iran does not directly fund Hamas. Another zionist lie. You cannot prove that. Hamas is under an economic blockade...2/3 OF ITS BASIC FOOD is smuggled through underground tunnels on the black market; they will take funding wherever they can get it.
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Max

posted 1/13/09 @ 2:16 PM EST

Personally speaking, I'm just waiting for someone to call the Israeli government "Zionist Nazis". For the irony, of course.
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dejai

posted 1/13/09 @ 2:41 PM EST

Hamas (and Hezbollah) both are fighting a proxy war funded by Iran - Egypt is feeling threatened which is why it has become involved in negotiations.

Jan 12, 2009 0:35 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 12:40
Iran warns Hamas not to accept truce
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH


Iran is exerting heavy pressure on Hamas not to accept the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Israel, an Egyptian government official said on Sunday.


The official told The Jerusalem Post by phone that two senior Iranian officials who visited Damascus recently warned Hamas leaders against accepting the proposal.

His remarks came as Hamas representatives met in Cairo with Egyptian Intelligence Chief Gen. Omar Suleiman and his aides to discuss ways of ending the fighting in the Gaza Strip.

The Hamas representatives reiterated their opposition to a cease-fire that did not include the reopening of all the border crossings into the Gaza Strip, Hamas spokesmen said on Sunday.

RELATED
Egypt sees progress in ceasefire talks with Hamas
The spokesmen said Hamas voiced its strong opposition to the idea of deploying an international force inside the Gaza Strip.

The Egyptian official said that the two Iranian emissaries, Ali Larijani, Speaker of the Iranian Parliament, and Said Jalili of the Iranian Intelligence Service, met in the Syrian capital with Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal and Islamic Jihad Secretary-General Ramadan Shallah.


"As soon as the Iranians heard about the Egyptian cease-fire initiative, they dispatched the two officials to Damascus on an urgent mission to warn the Palestinians against accepting it," the Egyptian government official told the Post.

"The Iranians threatened to stop weapons supplies and funding to the Palestinian factions if they agreed to a cease-fire with Israel. The Iranians want to fight Israel and the US indirectly. They are doing this through Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon".

The official pointed out that the Iranians were applying "double standards" regarding the current conflict - on the one hand, they encouraged Iranian men to volunteer to fight alongside Hamas; on the other hand, Iran's spiritual leader, Ali Khamenei, told the volunteers that they would not be permitted to join the fight against Israel.

"The Iranians never fired one bullet at Israel," he said. "But now they are trying to appear as if they are participating in the war against Israel. The leaders of Teheran don't care about the innocent civilians who are being killed in the Gaza Strip".

The Egyptian official accused Iran of "encouraging" Hamas to continue firing rockets at Israel with the hope that this would trigger a war that would divert attention from Iran's nuclear plans.

"This conflict serves the interests of the Iranians," he said. "They are satisfied because the violence in the Gaza Strip has diverted attention from their nuclear ambitions. The Iranians are also hoping to use the Palestinian issue as a 'powerful card' in future talks with the Americans.

"They want to show that they have control over Hamas and many Palestinians".

Karam Jaber, editor of the semi-official Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Youssef magazine, said that Hamas was caught between the Syrian anvil and the Iranian hammer. The Iranians, he said, prevented Hamas from negotiating a cease-fire with Israel, while the Syrians were blackmailing and intimidating the Hamas leaders in Damascus.

"History won't forget to mention that Hamas had inflicted death and destruction on the Palestinians," he said. "We hope that Hamas has learned the lesson and realizes that it has been fighting a war on behalf of others. We hope the Hamas leaders will realize that they are fighting a destructive war on behalf of the Iranians and Syrians".

Egyptian political analyst Magdi Khalil said he shared the view of the Palestinian Authority and Egypt that Hamas was responsible for the war in the Gaza Strip. "Ever since Hamas seized control over the Gaza Strip in 2007, they turned the area into hell," he said. "They imposed restrictions on the people there and even prevented them from performing the pilgrimage to Mecca".

The analyst said that the head of the Egyptian General Intelligence Service was right when he recently described Hamas as a group of gangsters. "Hamas and its masters in Damascus and Teheran want to spread chaos in Egypt," he said. "They want to solve the problem of the Gaza Strip by handing the area over to Egypt. They want to create a homeland for the Palestinians in Sinai".

He said that Hamas was not only jeopardizing Egypt's national security, but had also destroyed the Palestinians' dream of statehood. "By endorsing the Iranian agenda, Hamas has brought the Iranians to Egypt's eastern border," he said. "Hamas has also copied Hizbullah's policy of entering into pointless adventures".
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jamal

posted 1/13/09 @ 3:06 PM EST

Omar: I am extremely offended by the statement "Zionism=Racism."

As an African-American Jew, I am shocked that even in modern times, blanket statements echoed by brutal figures such as Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Yasser Arafat, etc are used by students at this fine university.

Zionism is and cannot be racism because Judaism is not a race. Anyone can be a Jew. Judaism is a peaceful, progressive religion bent on advancing society. In fact, Israel is the home to peoples of all races, religions and ethnicities.

It is the only liberal democracy surrounded by all sides with Muslim dictatorships. Is it any wonder that the civilians of Gaza want to trade with Israel? Instead of attacking their neighbors, Israelis spend their money on education and have one of the best public school systems in the world. Muslims, Christians, Jews and other Israeli citizens are privy to universal health care and excellent universities that rival even the likes of UGA. Most importantly, Israelis reserve the right to demonstrate, protest, worship, speak and write whatever they like.

Omar, you're unfair remarks are offensive and I demand an apology.
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 3:44 PM EST

Originally posted by

jamal

 Omar: I am extremely offended by the statement "Zionism=Racism."

As an African-American Jew, I am shocked that even in modern times, blanket statements echoed by brutal figures such as Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Yasser Arafat, etc are used by students at this fine university.

Zionism is and cannot be racism because Judaism is not a race. Anyone can be a Jew. Judaism is a peaceful, progressive religion bent on advancing society. In fact, Israel is the home to peoples of all races, religions and ethnicities.



I didn't think the statements could get so ignorant, until Jamal decided to post. First of all, Zionism is not the same as Judaism. The Zionist movement that established the state of israel came about in the late 1800s. Do you know history? I believe the Torah and Judaism can be traced long before zionism, and long before Theodor Herzl.

Zionism is a racist political movement not a religion. Zionism is not Judaism. You must be one of the dumbest and most misinformed jews Ive ever heard from if you dont know that. Do you own a Torah? Is Jamal an alias for Zab Judah?

The zionist movement has been used to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestine of its original ARAB population -Muslim, Christians, and Jews- and substitute it with a new European jewish commmunity. There are jews who oppose zionism. What would they be to you? You are ignorant. Must be an idiot convert who thinks he is having a spritual experience. Take that Madonna wrist band off and learn some history.

Israel is a jewish state. Not a state for all religions. And the israeli government routinely imposes RACIST and OPPRESSIVE policies towards the indigenous ARAB MUSLIM & CHRISTIAN populations. ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE. ISRAEL IS A JEWISH STATE. Do you know what "birth right" is? A JEWISH STATE FOR THE JEWS. Not a state for people of all religions. Israel is a Jewish State.

So dont selectively chose Saddam, or Bin Laden to deflect attention from that criticism. Both Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have also equated the two. Go ask them for an apology.

And further proof of racist motivations lie in this post alone from your fellow israel lovers, and israeli founders themselves.

An apology! You are a joke.
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hmm

posted 1/13/09 @ 3:39 PM EST

Pretty sure Zionism and Judaism are not synonymous...
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Kyle T

posted 1/13/09 @ 4:11 PM EST

From a non-Jewish viewpoint, Israel is really doing what it must to defend it's freedom and existence as a Middle Eastern society. I truly believe Israel when they say they are resorting to a last resort in their attempts to control the terrorism presented by Hamas and other groups. The Middle-East has always been an area of high violence. Due to the religious and cultural beliefs of the region, most inhabitants of the Middle-East are highly unwelcoming of outsiders or outside beliefs and influence. The majority of inhabitants in the Middle-East see Israel as outsiders. They refuse to recognize them or give them any rights. Violence is their primary too. It is almost impossible to attempt to negotiate with groups such as Hamas. They have no clear leadership. Instead, they are led by warlords and religious zealots who have specifically biased agendas. They have made no logical attempts at negotiations or attempts toward a peaceful society. Even if a fraction of these inhabitants attempted to negotiate peace for Hamas, other violent terroristic groups would soon take their place. It is unfortunate that Israel is forced to deal with such situations. I wish Israel well in their attempts to gain peace and freedom in a terror-free society.
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dejai

posted 1/13/09 @ 4:20 PM EST

Actually, Omar, Noni Darwish (who you should be familiar with) is far more accurate in her assessment of the situation in Gaza:

Nonie Darwish

The Gaza Prison Camp
Posted March 16, 2008 | 11:34 PM (EST)


"Gaza conditions at '40-year low'" the BBC headlined last week. Rarely a week goes by without a politician or organization deploring the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip. But I do not hear anyone describe its root cause: 60 years of Arab policy aimed at maintaining Palestinians as stateless refugees in order to pressure Israel.

I lived in Gaza as a child in the 1950s when Egypt conducted guerrilla-style operations against Israel from Gaza, then under Egyptian control. My father commanded these operations, carried out by "fedayeen," (which means, "self sacrifice"). This became the frontline of Arab Jihad against Israel. My father was killed by Israel in a targeted assassination in 1956.

Today the Gaza Strip, now under the control of Hamas, has become the Gaza prison camp for 1.5 million Palestinians and continues to serve as the launching pad for attacks against Israeli citizens.

This is the legacy of the Arab world's Palestinian refugee policy, started 60 years ago, when the Arab League implemented special laws regarding Palestinians that all Arab countries had to abide by. Arab countries could not absorb Palestinians. Even if a Palestinian married a citizen of an Arab country, that Palestinian could not become a citizen of his or her spouse's country. A Palestinian can be born, live and die in an Arab country, but never gain its citizenship. Even now I receive e-mails from Palestinians telling me they cannot have a Syrian passport, for example, and must remain Palestinian even though they have never set foot in the West Bank or Gaza. Forcing the Palestinian identity on them is designed to perpetuate the Palestinian refugee status. Palestinians have been used and abused by Arab nations, and by Palestinian terrorists, for the purpose of destroying Israel.

The 22 Arab states certainly do not have a shortage of land. Many surrounding Arab areas, such as the Sinai Peninsula, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, are very sparsely populated. But absorbing Palestinians would end their refugee status and their desire to harm Israel.

Arab wealth, which is increasing dramatically because of skyrocketing oil prices, is not used to improve the lives, infrastructure and economy of the people of the West Bank and Gaza. Instead, it supports terror groups who reject Israel's existence and oppose peace with Israel. The average Gaza man has a better employment opportunity if he joins Hamas.

Gazans' breach of their checkpoint with Egypt in January, orchestrated by Hamas, is a result of the Palestinian refugee policy. The checkpoints on the Arab side of Gaza could not keep the inmates inside. The Arab plan to overpopulate Gaza exploded in the wrong direction. After this explosion, Suleiman Awwad, an Egyptian administration spokesman, said, "Egypt is a respected state, its border cannot be breached and its soldiers should not be lobbed with stones." In other words, Egypt is not like Israel, which is a disrespected state. Gazans should not direct the violence at Egypt, only at Israel. This is Arab conventional wisdom.

Last month Hamas threatened to bring 40,000 Palestinians, primarily children and women, to the Gaza border with Israel to protest Israel's restrictions on Gaza. Some Hamas leaders hinted they would send these protestors to breach the border, once again demonstrating that the Palestinian terrorists have no qualms about endangering the lives of innocent people -- Israelis or Palestinians. Fortunately, only 5,000 showed up.

But Hamas did succeed two days later in killing an Israeli: a 47 year-old father of four during a rocket attack from Gaza while he was sitting in his car next to Sapir College near Sderot. Two weeks earlier, two Israeli brothers, Osher and Rami Twito, ages 8 and 19, were seriously injured by a rocket from Gaza while buying their father a birthday present. Osher's left leg had to be amputated.

Israel completely left Gaza in August 2005. In May and June 2007, Hamas waged war against its Palestinian brothers in Fatah to gain control of Gaza. Hamas intensified its rockets attacks on Israeli towns, compelling Israel to take economic and military measures against Gaza. Hamas has become a danger not only to Israel, but to Palestinians and to neighboring Arab countries, as well. Nevertheless, the Arab world still refuses to see its role in creating this monster. It is difficult to find a similar situation in human history: the intentional creation of a refugee status for a million and a half people, sustained for 60 years. The Arab world has cut its nose to spite its face.

The world needs to understand that this dangerous mess started when 22 Arab countries agreed to create a human prison called the Gaza Strip. Arabs claim they love the Palestinian people, but they seem more interested in sacrificing them. It is time for the Arab world to open their side of the borders and absorb the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza who wish to be absorbed. It is time for the Arab world to truly help the Palestinians, not use them.

Nonie Darwish, who grew up in Cairo and Gaza City, is the author of, "Now They Call me Infidel."
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Aliya

posted 1/13/09 @ 5:17 PM EST

If you still think Israel is not a racist state, Israel just banned Arab parties from running for office in the upcoming elections.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html

Haaretz is the most widely distributed Israeli newspaper, for those of you worried about bias.
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dejai

posted 1/13/09 @ 6:40 PM EST

Haaretz is the most widely distributed Israeli newspaper, for those of you worried about bias.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Yedioth Achronot (ynetnews.com) is the most widely read, middle of the road newspaper read in Israel, Haaretz is far left wing. Jerusalem Post is center right. Maariv - right and there's dozens of others. Don't b.s. people - Aliyah....but I guess that's second nature for you.
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Tyrone

posted 1/13/09 @ 5:47 PM EST

I agree completely. Israel has a right to defend itself.
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Oh Yeah!

posted 1/13/09 @ 5:49 PM EST

In the not so distant future:

Israeli Prime Minister Tzivi Lipni today accused Palestinian death-camp inmates of "harboring terroristic thoughts" on their way to the gas chambers.

"We will not negotiate with terrorists", said Lipni. "Until the Palestinian people show that they reject the terrorist ideology of the terrorist Hamas, we will continue to defend ourselves against terrorism", as the first 200 accused Hamas members were marched into the newly completed gas chambers located near Karni crossing. The accused Hamas members were suspected of planning to throw rocks near the Israel-Gaza border fence. In recent weeks at least 87 Israeli women have bawled pitifully on television due to alleged Palestinian rock-throwing.

"We vow to fight these terroristic terrorists who engage in terrorism", said Lipni. "Terrorizing us with terror by terrorists will, um... democracy, elections", she added. The accused Hamas members were then immediately gassed to death.

The violence continues on both sides.

The U.N. reported that 38,000 Palestinians children have blown to bits by Israeli cluster bombs in the latest IDF offensive.

On the Israeli side, three persons in the southern town of Sderot were offered free psychological counseling after seeing television reports about the latest IDF incursion into Gaza. Sara Bar-Hami, 52, cried as she recounted her experience: "Hamas wanted me to see this. They're targeting Israeli civilians".

President Obama responded to a question at a news conference that "We call on both sides to renounce violence and fully support Israel's right to defend its citizens from terrorism".

Lipni said that Israel plans to step up the gassings at the homicidal death camp near Karni. "Until the terroristic threat of these terrorists causing terror and terrorizing is terrored by terror, and terror, terror, terrorize, terrorist terrorism terroristic terror".

Congress passed a bill approving the immediate transfer of $500 Billion to Israel. A proposed law to seize all private assets in America and legally transfer them to the Israeli government is under debate. Abraham Foxman encouraged Americans to embrace this law, which helps combat anti-semitism.
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Oh, No!

posted 1/13/09 @ 6:52 PM EST

In the not so distant future:

Hamas will conquer Israel and it will cease to exist. Hamas will go on to conquer the middle east and then the entire world The world will be dominated by fundamentalist Islam, Shariah law will be enforced. Such a future to look forward to!
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goat

posted 1/13/09 @ 7:30 PM EST

As a supporter of Israel and a sympathizer for a hopeful and thriving future Palestinian state, here is a simple proposal:

Israel: must make concessions similar to the 1967 proposed borders, with minor adjustments for the sake of security. Water, access to ports, and Jerusalem to be also fairly negotiated.

Egypt and Jordan: must provide resources and land to help accommodate stateless and displaced palestinians.

Palestinian government: must, at the very least, remove from their current mission statement the call for the absolute annihilation of Israel. And hopefully also recognize that Israel is a Jewish state.


(any constructive additions are welcome)
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Omar

posted 1/13/09 @ 8:56 PM EST

Originally posted by

goat

 As a supporter of Israel and a sympathizer for a hopeful and thriving future Palestinian state, here is a simple proposal:

Israel: must make concessions similar to the 1967 proposed borders, with minor adjustments for the sake of security. Water, access to ports, and Jerusalem to be also fairly negotiated.

Egypt and Jordan: must provide resources and land to help accommodate stateless and displaced palestinians.

Palestinian government: must, at the very least, remove from their current mission statement the call for the absolute annihilation of Israel. And hopefully also recognize that Israel is a Jewish state.


(any constructive additions are welcome)


This is a much more constructive post that all the others (mine included), however I would suggest considering one thing. Who has the most power in this situation today? Who is the strongest negotiator? Who controls any peace deal's potential?

Israel

Knowing that, I am sad to say to you that they will never give concessions similar to what you have suggested. On top of that, look at the facts on the ground which israel has created in the last 20 years.

I suggest one state, open to all people to live free in. A democracy. Equal rights for all people.
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...

posted 1/13/09 @ 8:39 PM EST

"Hamas will conquer Israel and it will cease to exist. Hamas will go on to conquer the middle east and then the entire world The world will be dominated by fundamentalist Islam, Shariah law will be enforced. Such a future to look forward to!"

Them and WHOSE army? Hamas doesn't have that kind of strength or power. It's ideas like this that keep pro-Israeli Americans (because few other countries are this uninformed) thinking that this is a battle of equals, when in fact Qassam rockets are the last resort of a people choking to death under Israeli blockades and incursions.
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Evan

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:05 PM EST

Omar,

yeah, too bad that even if Israel did put that offer on the table, Hamas would never go for it. EVER!!! They make that explicitly clear in their charter. THEY WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL!!! I seriously don't know how it can be made any more clear than this. Common sense is anything but common nowadays.
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Jason

posted 1/13/09 @ 9:34 PM EST

I agree too. Israel has a right to self-defense. Omar, enough of your skewed distortion of reality and clear pro-Palestinian bias. It adds nothing to this discussion.
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Only Jews Have Right To Self Defense

posted 1/14/09 @ 12:07 AM EST

Originally posted by

Jason

 I agree too. Israel has a right to self-defense. Omar, enough of your skewed distortion of reality and clear pro-Palestinian bias. It adds nothing to this discussion.


That's the implicit bias in all this strawman bullshit.
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Let my people go

posted 1/14/09 @ 8:59 AM EST

I'm still wondering why all of this is occuring. And why are we, students of the same university, living in the same country, fighting on the red and black website? Why are we acting like we REALLY know what's going on. Have you been to Israel or the Gaza strip lately. I sure doubt it. Have you fought in the IDF? I doubt it. Are you part of Hamas? I hope not. Well stop acting like you have any clue what is going on and arguing with each other just trying to get under each other's skin. What good is it doing you? If you want to make a difference, don't post on the red and black.
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Skip Hulett

posted 1/14/09 @ 9:57 AM EST

Once, down here in Dixie, we had a little thing called slavery: "Master" and Missy and Little Belle all living in the "Big House" while in shacks out back lived a people of different color and religion and national origin confined against their will, their lives entirely controlled by a slavemaster who could, and would, withhold necessities or punish them for any transgression, real or perceived.

And, from the perspective of an enlightened post-Civil War America, who among us can disapprove if those slaves had resisted by violence, maybe burning the "Big House" and maybe killing Massah's wife and children and other "innocents" in the process? Does not an enslaved community, imprisoned collectively by virtue of their nationality, have the right to resist? Should they not be expected to? Similarly, do we not expect POWs to resist "by all means necessary?"

So, I ask, so what if the Gazan Palestinians fire rockets into Israeli towns, indiscriminately threatening innocent civilians? Is this somehow an exception to the right we afford a captive people to resist?

I say if Israel wishes to have equal (or better) right to self-defense, why does it not simply recognize a Palestinian state, declare its own (never defined) Israeli borders and withdraw entirely, leaving the Palestinians to freely build a nation? Then, if Israel were attacked by Palestine, it would be very reasonably justified in doing what it claims it is doing now, because it would be defending itself against a belligerent sovereign state.

As it is, Israel -- which has never declared its own borders -- has a million plus people penned up in its backyard, whom it controls and punishes like slaves through the occupation checkpoints, through illegal settlements and blockades, through confiscations of land, indefinite imprisonments, bulldozing of family homes, and so on -- not to even mention the horrific severity of its "self-defensive incursions". Yet the Palestinian's weapons -- be they rocks or crude rockets -- are "criminal."

That the Palestinian people in Gaza will use Quassam rockets -- or for that matter any weapon at their disposal -- and target anyone in the "Big House" as tormentors and eligible for assassination, should be expected. Why indeed should we not acknowledge the Palestinians' right to live by the same standards of justice that we in the U.S. and our ally Israel obviously accept: That if we and our families were backed against a wall and threatened, then we can fight back with any means at our disposal and if "innocents" will die when we do so, then so be it.

SO how to get out of the trap? How to get out of this insane cycle? The Palestinians as the captives cannot be expected to do anything but resist, I feel. (That would be like telling slaves, "Dont fight back, Master will get tired of whipping you one of these days and you and your family might still be alive then.")

However Israel -- as a nuclear power, not to mention as the clear and repeated victor of sixty years of conventional warfare to carve out its nation -- can act from strength, if it has the will and courage to do so. If Israel truly wants to be afforded the right to live free, I think that it can act unilaterally and preemptively (as it does whenever it wants to attack) to invoke the right to be left alone and to act in self-defense ... IF if it is willing to declare its own borders (preferably at the UN declared 1967 borders) , recognize a free and autonomous Palestinian state, and release its hold on the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. Because as long as Israel effectively imprisons the Palestinians, holds them as unwilling hostages to an indefinite and threatening future, violent resistance can be expected (and, if you are the ones resisting, justified).
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ridiculous.

posted 1/14/09 @ 11:00 AM EST

This article is ridiculous..forget all the political aspects behind this situation..HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU JUSTIFY KILLING NEAR 1000 PEOPLE?! There is obviously something wrong when Israel has 13 deaths and are killing hundreds of women and children blindly!! HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY WOMEN AND CHILDREN DYING?? how is this possible that the ENTIRE world can see this as a crisis, but some morons in the US think it is a war?? THIS IS NOT A WAR--THIS IS ETHNIC CLEANSING! sound familiar?? Also to all of you who support this ruthless killing, WHY would your precious Israel bomb UN buildings and block aid from getting in..also..water is running out for the people in gaza..how can this be justifiable?? you all are crazy to justify anyone's death..imagine if those were YOUR CHILDREN, BROTHERS, SISTERS, MOTHERS, AND FATHERS! RIDICULOUS!
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Shlomo

posted 1/14/09 @ 12:14 PM EST

Israel has the right to kill anyone they choose, at any time. Anyone who even THINKS about questioning this right is an anti-semite and will be prosecuted for hate crimes.
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That about sums it up...

posted 1/15/09 @ 12:32 PM EST

Originally posted by

Shlomo

 Israel has the right to kill anyone they choose, at any time. Anyone who even THINKS about questioning this right is an anti-semite and will be prosecuted for hate crimes.


Thank you. I recognize satire when I see it, and you have effectively summated the entire American perspective on this issue...enforced by ridiculous declarations by our government and an unconscionable blind eye turned by almost all American media outlets. I fear that the endgame to this whole mess will be the complete annihilation of Palestine, their people continuning to live out the rest of their days as helpless refugees in another country who doesn't want them.

I was born and raised in this wonderful country, and love America as much as the next person...but the blood of the Palestinian people is on your hands, America. You made this possible, with your unilateral support (financially, politically, and militarily) of an Israeli state bent on controlling more and more land that does not belong to them. For shame.
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Moderate

posted 1/14/09 @ 2:44 PM EST

Whichever side most successfully lives up to the major tenets of their religion (specifically the "Thou shalt not kill" provision) should rule. Failing that, turn the entire place over to me and I'll make it a freakin amusement park which, if it weren't for the fact that innocent people are dying, it sort of is already.
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Evan

posted 1/14/09 @ 3:36 PM EST

Originally posted by

Moderate

 Whichever side most successfully lives up to the major tenets of their religion (specifically the "Thou shalt not kill" provision) should rule. Failing that, turn the entire place over to me and I'll make it a freakin amusement park which, if it weren't for the fact that innocent people are dying, it sort of is already.


You see, this is where so many people broadcast their naivete and unwillingness to believe that there are people out there who truly believe that to live their religion fully, they have to kill those who do not follow the same beliefs.

Passages from the Charter of Hamas (Note that some of these excerpts are actual passages from the Qur'an):

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
----I'll break this one down for those who aren't good at interpretating. "If you tell a Jew or Christian that Islam is the only true religion, and they continue to be a Jew or Christian, they will get no protection from Allah (Hmmm...I wonder what this could mean?)

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
---I guess that means that compromise is out the window. Just to be fair, I will concede the fact that the word "Jihad" does not necessarily mean "holy war" like most people think. That is one of its interpretations though. "Jihad" is basically a term describing anything that is a religious duty of Muslims. It literally means "struggle."


These are just a few. Listen, I am not against Islam, but, like many religious, there are fanatics who have taken parts of their relgious text out of context and apply it with zealot-like violence. THIS SHIT ACTUALLY HAPPENS! BELIEVE IT! STOP BEING NAIVE AND THINKING THAT EVERYONE IS GOOD AND EVIL DOES NOT EXIST.
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