The Red and Black

There's absolutely no way that this woman preaches from the Bible. Therefore, I highly doubt that she is leading them down the right path. If we can just omit passages from the Bible and forget the authority of those words, then we can forget about the authority of God, as this woman has done with her church. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son" might as well be as much hogwash as "A man shall not lie with another man as he would with a woman." When you get into the "pick and choose" Biblical Christianity lots of people have gotten into, the message of the actual, true, soveriegn God gets lost and people lose their path. They lead themselves down a path that gets them further from the truth and further from the guiding spirit of the Lord. Please, anybody out there looking for a church or looking for something more, find a church that loves people, loves the Lord, and preaches God's word, The Bible.

Jed, forgive me.

I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, and always clears the table when its her turn. What would a good price for her be?

While thinking about that, can I ask another? My friend insists upon working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it ok to call the police?

Here's one thats really important, cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean, Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can the Notre Dame? Can UGA?

Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

Think about those qestions would you?

TO BARTLETT Read the WHOLE Bible, not just the old testament. The "pastor" is claiming to be a born agian Christian, not a Jew. ALso, quit stealing your material from Jed Bartlett in "THe West WIng." THat is all.

Dr. Bartlett,
Your post belies a proper hermeneutic regarding the understanding of Covenants in Scripture. This is a common misunderstanding among many believers and unbelievers alike, but usually is inappropriately used as an argument that all prohibitions/directives from Scripture must be adopted or refuted arbitrarily. In the case of your examples, however, one needs only to understand that these directives were given to a particular people, Israel, as a part of the Mosaic Covenant. There is more that can be said here, but the New Testament Church exists in a different dispensation. This does not mean that the Church throws out the Old Testament (e.g. Marcion), but it does mean that we are constantly aware of the differing dispensations. In the Old Testament God chose a particular people, Isreal, to be separated from all other peoples and we see many directives that are strange to us. Understood correctly, these texts point to a Holy God who cannot bear the sight of evil, especially among His people, and points to a sure judgment to come. All this to say that your argument that the former commenter should adopt the O.T. directives that you list is fallacious.

Originally posted by

anon

In Georgia, it's perfectly legal to be fired or evicted if your boss or landlord finds out you're gay. Just wanted to throw that out there.

So wait... you get to pick and choose which aspects of the Bible are talking to you and which parts are directed at someone else.

Some of those directives come from the same book of Leviticus which Christian's cite as "proof" that homosexuality is a sin. You can't pick and choose beliefs that are convenient for you... that's just an incredible cop out.

Plus, did Jesus ever say anything regarding homosexuality? I think his message was more about love and compassion for all of God's children.

Willy,
1) The fact that all Scripture speaks (or talks as you say) to me is distinguished from the idea that there are directives for certain individuals and groups in which I am not included.
2) If you read my post, you would not say that I pick and choose beliefs that are convenient for me - that's arbitrariness. Your attacking my argument based upon what "other Christian's site in their arguments without even knowing my argument against homosexuality. Read my argument please, or just continue to say that I am "copping out" and avoid my argument.
3) Because you imply a distinction between the word's of Christ and the Word of Scripture as a testament to the Word, there is no basis for us to dialogue.

God's "choosing a holy people" is more evidence that Yaweh (yes, your god has a name) is a local, tribal god, and not a universal god of everyone.

Hate to break it to you, sweetie but EVERY CHRISTIAN OMITS STUFF FROM THE BIBLE. Why? Because if you didn't and you followed EVERYTHING you'd be dead, in prison, or in a mental institution. You'd be a danger to society.

Here's what your Bible says:
1. Slavery is okay.
2. A woman isn't even supposed to preach. Or talk in church. Or teach a man. (No female professors at UGA)
3. You are supposed to stone your kid if she or he mouths off at you.
4.You are supposed to stone prostitutes/adulterers/people who have sex with animals (AND kill the poor animal for good measure)
5. You are supposed to get stoned if you work on Sunday.
6. Raping and marrying a woman is totally okay.
7. Don't go near a woman who is on her period.
8. You're not supposed to mix certain fabrics together.
9. A woman is her husband's property.

Nice try, but the Bible is incompatible with our world now. Hate to break it to you, but you're cherry-picking too so you have absolutely no room to talk about another person.

Originally posted by

anon

In Georgia, it's perfectly legal to be fired or evicted if your boss or landlord finds out you're gay. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Watch out for the women who may be on their periods. Eek! You're not supposed to be around them. >_> <__> Just...don't go to school today. Or the next day.

And if you see a female teacher on campus, tell her that she ain't supposed to be teaching (Remember, a woman CAN'T teach a man, according to the Bible). Heavens forbid you see a woman TALKING in church! Tell her to shut up immediately because women aren't supposed to talk in church!

Oh, and if you rape a woman, you can marry her and she'll be your property. Sweet deal, ain't it? (Well, if you're a MAN. If you're a woman, have someone kill you and the woman you raped.)

And if God tells you to murder your child, by all means do it! It's a test to see how faithful you are even though God knows everything already! Sometimes, you have to lose something to gain something.

Kidnap someone and make them your slave. It's okay. The Bible says so!

When you get older and have a child, stone that damn child when he/she starts getting smart. It's okay. The Bible says you can do it.

Finally, if you see someone having sex with an animal, kill the person and kill the animal for good measure. And stone some prostitutes if you want.

You should know the reasons for having an old testament vs. a new testament before spitting out verses such as the list above. These rules are listed in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and most old testament chapters.

Do your research before posting.

Nicole,
You do not present an argument, but an assertion based on the assumption that God (actually YHWH, not Yahweh)is necessarily a tribal God simply because he chose a specific people through whom to bless all peoples.

Why would you NOT kill someone that has sex with animals? Is that all the sudden the cool thing to do? Bible conversation aside, let's stop using that as a point, people who lay with chickens aren't really saints and probably should be put to death as to relieve them of the obvious mental distress they are under

Coastal Dawg,
I am thinking about your comments and would appreciate your answering a few questions regarding some of the points you make so that I can better understand your assertions. You refer to "THE church" in your comments. Would you tell me more about that? What and where is "THE church"? Also, you refer to the Bible as being "crystal clear" on some issues (e.g., homosexuality as an abomination, a list of who and who will not go to heaven). Would you share which version/edition of the Bible you're referring to? Is there a theologian in particular whose interpretation of scripture with whom you most closely align your own interpretation? Are there certain theologians whose work you've read or heard who have helped you think through these issues? Finally, you ask readers not to try to rationalize. What do you mean when you say "rationalize"?
Thank you.
Amy

Originally posted by

CoastalDawg

Anon (guess you didn't want anyone to be able to know who you are), I don't know where you got your "information" but it is not correct: in NO state can one summarily fire someone JUST for being gay, black, white, Chinese, or any other diversity from the WASP identity. As for the pastor, she obviously chooses which biblical passages to believe and practice and which ones NOT to believe and practice. The Bible is crystal clear on some points and a man lying with another man as with a woman ("man" applying to both males and females) being an abomination is absolutely clear. So is the list of who won't make it into heaven - read for yourself and either believe or not, but do NOT try to rationalize and deny that it is there. As to whether persons are born homosexual or not, that is an answer that is "above my pay grade" (sound familiar?). We cannot decide what attracts us, to which sex we feel more attracted, just as we can't determine when we become hungry. What we CAN do is choose whether or not to respond to that attraction - that goes for those who are happily married but let a wandering eye pull them away from their mate as well as those who feel attracted to the same sex. I do personally know of those who have lived a homosexual lifestyle but were able to "escape" that lifestyle and live a "straight" life - those people are few and far between to be sure. To establish an entire church and tell God that He must say it's OK to live the lifestyle they want doesn't quite meet the requirements in His Own Word. THE Church, regardless of the denomination, should be loving and accepting those who find themselves in the "gay" world but those same churches MUST preach the Word as written and let those who are attracted to the same sex know exactly what the Word says about that. The key is whether or not a church bases its doctrine on man's desires and wishes or God's Word.

Originally posted by

CoastalDawg

Anon (guess you didn't want anyone to be able to know who you are), I don't know where you got your "information" but it is not correct: in NO state can one summarily fire someone JUST for being gay, black, white, Chinese, or any other diversity from the WASP identity. As for the pastor, she obviously chooses which biblical passages to believe and practice and which ones NOT to believe and practice. The Bible is crystal clear on some points and a man lying with another man as with a woman ("man" applying to both males and females) being an abomination is absolutely clear. So is the list of who won't make it into heaven - read for yourself and either believe or not, but do NOT try to rationalize and deny that it is there. As to whether persons are born homosexual or not, that is an answer that is "above my pay grade" (sound familiar?). We cannot decide what attracts us, to which sex we feel more attracted, just as we can't determine when we become hungry. What we CAN do is choose whether or not to respond to that attraction - that goes for those who are happily married but let a wandering eye pull them away from their mate as well as those who feel attracted to the same sex. I do personally know of those who have lived a homosexual lifestyle but were able to "escape" that lifestyle and live a "straight" life - those people are few and far between to be sure. To establish an entire church and tell God that He must say it's OK to live the lifestyle they want doesn't quite meet the requirements in His Own Word. THE Church, regardless of the denomination, should be loving and accepting those who find themselves in the "gay" world but those same churches MUST preach the Word as written and let those who are attracted to the same sex know exactly what the Word says about that. The key is whether or not a church bases its doctrine on man's desires and wishes or God's Word.

Coastal Dawg, how I wish you were right about not being fired for being gay. But the truth is there is no federal law that says you can't fire someone for being gay, though there are some states that have passed statewide civil rights laws banning that discrimination. But in most parts of the country you can be fired based on your sexual orientation alone- and you have no legal recourse, you are SOL. I understand why you don't think that can still be possible, it's the 21st century and you'd think by now that stuff doesn't happen anymore. But it does - every day people are fired or not hired or miss out on a promotion not because of their job performance or abilities, but because a manager or supervisor or employer thinks the person is gay or lesbian or bisexual or or too butch/too feminine and chooses to discriminate against them. Most Americans think you should be judged on merit and performance, not personal characteristics - but laws haven't kept up with that the way corporate America (Coke, ups, harley davidson, etc with non-discrimination policies including gender identity and sexual orientation) has... But I am hopeful one day that legal reality will catch up with what is right...

For the record, it is in fact still legal in many states to fire someone for being gay. Gay people are not included in all equal employment opportunity standards. Companies can choose whether to add them to the list of minorities against whom they do not discriminate.

Additionally, when the Bible was written, the word "abomination" meant "uncommon," not "sin" as it is understood today. Also, Jewish men during Biblical times were all supposed to be equal, therefore, one man being dominant over the other, as in one man assuming the role of a woman during relations was unacceptable. This was also frowned upon because it was seen as impeding procreation at a time when humans were still trying to propagate the earth. The Bible never refers to homosexuality because they had no concept of sexuality at that time. Furthermore, Jesus never once preached against or even mentioned homosexuals in any way. This information comes directly from clergy of all faiths who have examined the issue. For more information check out the film "For the Bible Tells Me So". It is very good and looks at homosexuality from both sides.

Originally posted by

CoastalDawg

Anon (guess you didn't want anyone to be able to know who you are), I don't know where you got your "information" but it is not correct: in NO state can one summarily fire someone JUST for being gay, black, white, Chinese, or any other diversity from the WASP identity. As for the pastor, she obviously chooses which biblical passages to believe and practice and which ones NOT to believe and practice. The Bible is crystal clear on some points and a man lying with another man as with a woman ("man" applying to both males and females) being an abomination is absolutely clear. So is the list of who won't make it into heaven - read for yourself and either believe or not, but do NOT try to rationalize and deny that it is there. As to whether persons are born homosexual or not, that is an answer that is "above my pay grade" (sound familiar?). We cannot decide what attracts us, to which sex we feel more attracted, just as we can't determine when we become hungry. What we CAN do is choose whether or not to respond to that attraction - that goes for those who are happily married but let a wandering eye pull them away from their mate as well as those who feel attracted to the same sex. I do personally know of those who have lived a homosexual lifestyle but were able to "escape" that lifestyle and live a "straight" life - those people are few and far between to be sure. To establish an entire church and tell God that He must say it's OK to live the lifestyle they want doesn't quite meet the requirements in His Own Word. THE Church, regardless of the denomination, should be loving and accepting those who find themselves in the "gay" world but those same churches MUST preach the Word as written and let those who are attracted to the same sex know exactly what the Word says about that. The key is whether or not a church bases its doctrine on man's desires and wishes or God's Word.

Coastal Dawg,

I see you quote Leviticus. Can I ask if you also remember to not blend your clothes (such as a cotton/polyester blended shirt) and do not associate with women who are menstruating? Leviticus states these acts are also abominations.

Love and let others be loved. It's not up to you to judge.

So, you think that the Bible should be preached verbatim, huh? Perhaps I should refer you to one of my favorite passages, one that I'm sure you don't hear, haven't heard, and will never EVER hear spoken of in any church of yours. The passage is Deuteronomy 28: 15-68, and it is as follows (The New Oxford Annotated Bible):
"But if you will not obey the Lord you God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall com upon you and overtake you:
Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock.
Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
The Lord will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. The Lord will make the pestilence cling to you until it has consumed you off the land that you are entering to possess."
I could go on, but it's a very long passage. Anyway, he threatens the Israelites with rebuke, vexation, fever, inflammation, pestilence, burning, blasting, mildew, the terrible botch of Egypt, scabs, haemmorhoids, madness blindness, the itch that can't be healed, allowing their enemies to defeat them with swords, allowing their dead bodies to be pecked apart by birds and eaten by wild animals, forcing them to watch other people rape their wives and sell their children into slavery, leg injuries, and eventually make things so bad that they'll have to eat their own children. It's a real passage. I'll swear it on the Buddha himself!
Anyway, I just wanted to see if you really knew what you were talking about when you said "His Own Word" (Why do you capitalize it, by the way?) should be taught word-for-word. No? Didn't think think so.
I am Hyenus Ex Machina, and I'm outta here!
Scanctum Peter Cottium
Deus in re unium
Hippitus hoppitus reus Domine
In suus via torreum
Lepus en re sanctum
Hippitus hoppitus Deus Domine
Hale Snowball!

So, you think that the Bible should be preached verbatim, huh? Perhaps I should refer you to one of my favorite passages, one that I'm sure you don't hear, haven't heard, and will never EVER hear spoken of in any church of yours. The passage is Deuteronomy 28: 15-68, and it is as follows (The New Oxford Annotated Bible):
"But if you will not obey the Lord you God by diligently observing all his commandments and decrees, which I am commanding you today, then all these curses shall com upon you and overtake you:
Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.
Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle and the issue of your flock.
Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
The Lord will send upon you disaster, panic, and frustration in everything you attempt to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. The Lord will make the pestilence cling to you until it has consumed you off the land that you are entering to possess."
I could go on, but it's a very long passage. Anyway, he threatens the Israelites with rebuke, vexation, fever, inflammation, pestilence, burning, blasting, mildew, the terrible botch of Egypt, scabs, haemmorhoids, madness blindness, the itch that can't be healed, allowing their enemies to defeat them with swords, allowing their dead bodies to be pecked apart by birds and eaten by wild animals, forcing them to watch other people rape their wives and sell their children into slavery, leg injuries, and eventually make things so bad that they'll have to eat their own children. It's a real passage. I'll swear it on the Buddha himself!
Anyway, I just wanted to see if you really knew what you were talking about when you said "His Own Word" (Why do you capitalize it, by the way?) should be taught word-for-word. No? Didn't think think so.
I am Hyenus Ex Machina, and I'm outta here!
Scanctum Peter Cottium
Deus in re unium
Hippitus hoppitus reus Domine
In suus via torreum
Lepus en re sanctum
Hippitus hoppitus Deus Domine
Hale Snowball!

I didn't mean to post that twice, sorry. Hale Snowball!

Originally posted by

CoastalDawg

Anon (guess you didn't want anyone to be able to know who you are), I don't know where you got your "information" but it is not correct: in NO state can one summarily fire someone JUST for being gay, black, white, Chinese, or any other diversity from the WASP identity. As for the pastor, she obviously chooses which biblical passages to believe and practice and which ones NOT to believe and practice. The Bible is crystal clear on some points and a man lying with another man as with a woman ("man" applying to both males and females) being an abomination is absolutely clear. So is the list of who won't make it into heaven - read for yourself and either believe or not, but do NOT try to rationalize and deny that it is there. As to whether persons are born homosexual or not, that is an answer that is "above my pay grade" (sound familiar?). We cannot decide what attracts us, to which sex we feel more attracted, just as we can't determine when we become hungry. What we CAN do is choose whether or not to respond to that attraction - that goes for those who are happily married but let a wandering eye pull them away from their mate as well as those who feel attracted to the same sex. I do personally know of those who have lived a homosexual lifestyle but were able to "escape" that lifestyle and live a "straight" life - those people are few and far between to be sure. To establish an entire church and tell God that He must say it's OK to live the lifestyle they want doesn't quite meet the requirements in His Own Word. THE Church, regardless of the denomination, should be loving and accepting those who find themselves in the "gay" world but those same churches MUST preach the Word as written and let those who are attracted to the same sex know exactly what the Word says about that. The key is whether or not a church bases its doctrine on man's desires and wishes or God's Word.

In the state of Georgia, employers do not have to supply any reason for termination, so actually you can be fired for not being a WASP, or for being a WASP, or whatever

First, I need evidence that we are all born sinners. The Bible doesn't count. Why? Because there is no evidence that anything in that book is true.

Second, I don't think being gay is a sin. I think being gay is a combination of genetics and environment, but I do not believe it is a choice nor do I think it is morally wrong. I think homosexuality is an example of how diverse nature is.

You sound brainwashed. You can't even think outside the box. Not hiding in the closet and marrying someone of the opposite sex just so you can fit in with society and be a "true Christian" is worse than just living your life the way you are, provided you aren't hurting anyone.

Grow up. Mentally and emotionally. I know you like to think that as a Christian you are somehow close to perfection, but you're not. There is a lot you need to learn. And you need to open your mind.

And no, I'm not dissing Christians in general because I know some Christians who aren't like you. My dad is Christian and he doesn't go around saying people are sinners and that being gay is a "bad path." He just treats people like he wants to be treated and doesn't force his beliefs on others. Unlike you.

Originally posted by

Born

"Born" gay? I don't disagree. But, we're all born sinners, too. But, just because we're born sinners doesn't give us an excuse. Neither is being "born" gay an excuse to continue down that path. The option to walk in sin is a choice we all must make... every minute, every hour, and every day. Best of luck to you.

I don't get it. Are you saying being gay is a sin or not?

Originally posted by

lol

Wow... I think its so funny how people say they're born gay yet they believe in God. Clearly God says it is an abomination to be gay. Since this woman believes in God, why doesn't she believe what he has said. If your a non-believer and say your born gay thats fine. But to say you believe in God and you were born gay, laughable at best.If you actually believe in God it wouldn't make since for him to make you "born gay" since he despises the act.

How is it "laughable at best"? He despises sin, too, but we're all born sinners, and He allows us to be born that way.

Um, the Biblegod is kinda of a crackpipe. If you read the Bible, it makes sense for him to make people gay even though he despises gay people. (Hell, didn't he make us all sinners and he hates us for being sinful?)

He decided to say that he existed LONG after many people had died (So, they are probably burning in Hell now; and we can't forget the people who, even now, don't know who Jesus is so they are probably roasting in Hell) and he has murdered babies in excruciating ways because he was pissed off at their parents.

I think it's funny that you think it's funny that people can say they were born gay and believe in the Bible. I find it funny how a lot of people can claim their Christian even though, according to the Bible, they are or aren't doing certain IMPORTANT things. Don't just focus on the gay Christians. A lot of Christians went off in their own world...

If you're a woman, you're probably not supposed to be in school, you can't talk in church, you're not supposed to teach a man a thing. And if you marry a man, you're his property, end of story.

If you're a man, you can rape a woman and marry her.

You're also supposed to be stoning people who work on Sunday, prostitutes, gay people, your children if they get an attitude, people who have sex with animals (and kill the animals), etc.

And your God hasn't said anything yet. Only the Bible has said these things. And the Bible was written by ignorant human men who, if they existed today, would probably stone you for various "sins" you've committed (Again, if you're a woman in college? You're definitely stoned, and not in a good way.) There are so many mistakes that it can't even be taken literally.

Oh. And a question. What are intersexed people considered? Gay? Straight? Hmmm... Funny, they weren't mentioned in the Bible....

Originally posted by

lol

Wow... I think its so funny how people say they're born gay yet they believe in God. Clearly God says it is an abomination to be gay. Since this woman believes in God, why doesn't she believe what he has said. If your a non-believer and say your born gay thats fine. But to say you believe in God and you were born gay, laughable at best.If you actually believe in God it wouldn't make since for him to make you "born gay" since he despises the act.

Trying to offset your sins with sins of others is wrong and cowardly. You are right, It is true that we are all sinners.

I just wanted to say that I think you're totally awesome. I want to be like you someday. :D

I'm agnostic, so I can't answer your question. However, I'm hoping that the GOD OF THE UNIVERSE isn't so petty to hate someone because they are gay.

Thankfully, some Christians truly believe in an "all-loving" God. My dad is one of those Christians who just treats people how he wants to be treated no matter who they are. I think that's one of the most important things to being a Christian and a human.

I don't agree with some Christians who say that God is "all-loving," but he hates GLBT people. An "all-loving" God loves everyone or he isn't "all-loving."

Another thing I have been trying to get people to think about is what intersexed people are considered? Gay? Straight? If God hates gay people, does he hate them too?

Originally posted by

LRJ

So let me present this scenario. I am a gay man. I have a partner and have been completely faithful throughout our long relationship. I volunteer in my community and help the needy. I try not to put my needs in front of another and have lived my life to make those around me happy. I have lived a very productive and spiritually cleansing life; and I'm gay.
Now compare that to a straight people who has hate in his/her heart but goes to church and believe in the power of God's love. Some of you are saying that this love is not for me, but for you and yours who abstain from sex with a same sex partner.
How about premarital sex, jealous/coveting thoughts, and flaunting of wealth? I'm pretty sure that was all taboo too but I'm guessing most of you do that anyway. Is it only a sin if the deed is not inconvenient to your lifestyle? Also, how does all my other good deeds weigh in on the sin meter? Can I neutralize my "bad seed" by doing good deeds? I'm seriously curious about your collective thoughts on morality.

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Originally posted by

LRJ

So let me present this scenario. I am a gay man. I have a partner and have been completely faithful throughout our long relationship. I volunteer in my community and help the needy. I try not to put my needs in front of another and have lived my life to make those around me happy. I have lived a very productive and spiritually cleansing life; and I'm gay.
Now compare that to a straight people who has hate in his/her heart but goes to church and believe in the power of God's love. Some of you are saying that this love is not for me, but for you and yours who abstain from sex with a same sex partner.
How about premarital sex, jealous/coveting thoughts, and flaunting of wealth? I'm pretty sure that was all taboo too but I'm guessing most of you do that anyway. Is it only a sin if the deed is not inconvenient to your lifestyle? Also, how does all my other good deeds weigh in on the sin meter? Can I neutralize my "bad seed" by doing good deeds? I'm seriously curious about your collective thoughts on morality.

Please read James' 2 posts right above your own. Thank you.

Originally posted by

James

P.S.

One final thought for the night:

Not everyone who "claims" to be a Christian is one - not even a person who is ordained as a "minister". It takes a genuine conversion of the soul. Just remember what Jesus Himself said .........

"Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven".

"And there will be many on the last day who say to me Lord, did we not "PREACH" in Your name ............. and I will say unto them, depart from Me for I "NEVER" knew you."

The Bible also says that even Satan can disquise himslef as an "angel of light".

Beware of false prophets and false doctrine that will "ease your mind" but lead you down the wrong path. Look only to Jesus and His sacrifice for you.

God bless..................

James,
I could get into a verse swap with you, but I don't think it will accomplish much, as an earlier poster posited. My purpose here is to give you some insight about the impact of your words on your intended audience and offer a suggestion for increasing the likelihood of engaging in a dialogue with that audience, if that is what you're seeking. While I appreciate your concern for my soul, I want you to know that what you're saying is probably doing little more than demonstrating that you are well-read and deeply steeped in a certain kind of theology. Unfortunately, your verbosity and position of disseminator of absolute truth are probably repelling more people from Christianity than attracting them to it. You're firing up the people who agreed with you in the first place not those of us you're actually talking about and to. James, do you really think that those of us who are gay and grew up in Christian homes haven't heard and read these same points a million times? I would love to hear what you have to say that is new to add to this conversation. And please don't respond with another round of, "but the Bible states clearly..." Having what I am assuming is a similar religious background to yours, I want you to know that I am completely at peace with who I am and with my spirituality, so an argument based on an assumption of a shared notion of Biblical clarity will do nothing but end the conversation for me. Take some time to do some reading and thinking outside of your comfort zone, reading and thinking that involves some different possible ways of considering and reading the Bible. Commenters have already offered some possible titles for you, including the DVD For the Bible Tells Me So and the book What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality by Daniel Helminak. I know this can be a scary endeavor and you may completely reject what these texts have to say, but at least your intended audience will likely take you more seriously after you've considered a broader perspective of what is possible.

Quick response to your comment: "let any man without sin cast the first stone." There is none perfect except the Son of God. Is your life so squeaky clean? Are you living a perfect life and is that according to you or God's Word? Don't get me wrong. I'm not fond of homosexuality but neither am I of any sin. I have sin willfully and unwillfully but God isn't through with me yet. Am I a Christian and still sin? Yes, but for those sins I have acknowledged, I have repented and turned from. For those sins I haven't or don't realize I have sinned, I have asked God to reveal them unto me so that I may repent from them. So, ask yourself, why are you serving the Christian God if you still sin?

Originally posted by

Nicole

I have a question for all the gay people who believe in god.... why the HELL are you Christian?! Why would you believe in a god that CLEARLY condemns homosexual activity, and be a part of a culture that is intolerant of it too?! If you believe in god for whatever reason, you'd be crazy to pick the Christian god to worship! Why can't you just worship god in your own way? Who here really thinks that the lord and master of the universe cares where you put your private parts??

Replies to this article have only strengthened my faith... that the world is still full of bible-thumping homophobes.