The Red and Black

I know that people are justified on both sides to the violence that we see on the news every day. From what I read of this article, It appears as if Ms. Baltzer is opposed to a nation building defensive walls along its borders. I am sorry for those palestinians who have to endure many hours at the crossings, yet it is essential when we have seen so many suicide bombings and rocket attacks in the past. A nation has the right and even the moral obligation to defend itself and secure its own borders.

The plight of the palestinian people, I believe, is made worse by the actions of a few and the nonaction of surrounding Muslim countries. These people live in an eternal refugee area where violence and poverty hold power. There is little hope for these people. Either a separate state is established where law and order are put into effect or the people can be assimilated into countries they had formerly been citizens of.

Ms. Baltzer strikes me as a traitor to her own people. It is regrettable what has happened to the Palestinians. However, being the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, I wonder if Ms. Baltzer was aware of how much antisemitism existed among Palestinians even before the current state of Israel was refounded. In the documentary www.obsessionthemovie.com, the most chilling part of this documentary, which has been banned on many college campuses, was the part that covered events during World War II. The then Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, visited and met with Hitler a number of times. He was so enthusiastic and wanted to be a part of what the Nazis were doing regarding the Jews, that he helped fund and raise a Division of S.S. troops comprised entirely of Bosnian Muslims to help them in the Final Solution.
There was footage of the Mufti talking with Hitler and photos and footage of a field of Muslim S.S. troops praying with Nazi uniforms and fez hats with the German eagle on them. So I have to ask Ms Baltzer how far she will go in denouncing her own people's attempts at protecting their populace against continued terrorism. Will she be weeping or cheering the day when Amadinejad of Iran drops a nuke on Tel-Aviv?

Anti-Semitism as we know it is a Christian creation. And it still is. The worst anti-Semites in the world are American Christians who want to collect Jews in Israel in order to bring about the so-called end times.

MajorP:
1) We should never accept violence as being justified
2) Do you watch the news? the Wall has NOT prevented rocket attacks, and Hamas renounced suicide bombings after it ran for elections back in 2006.
3) The refugees were created by and continue to be created by israeli policies.
4) You presume Palestinians didnt exist before israel was created, when in actuality there were people in the region who identified themselves as Palestinians INCLUDING Palestinian Jews. And for your plan to be completely effective, it seems only fair to ask all Jews to assimilate back into Europe, the Americas, Africa, Asia, and Australia. Lets leave the region to the Arabs.

Leonidas:
You are an idiot.
FYI: More Jews were accomplices to Hitler than were Palestinians. Does that mean we should dismiss any Jewish claim today? Ms. Baltzer argued for humanity, not for misconceived nationalism.

Leonidas: "Ms. Baltzer strikes me as a traitor to her own people"

Like Muneer said, it is a humanitarian issue. Look at it this way: Are Germans who denounce Hitler and their past traitors to their people?

There are many Jewish people in Israel who denounce the Zionism movement due to humanitarian reasons. Is suppressing the people the answer to peace?

"Either a separate state is established where law and order are put into effect or the people can be assimilated into countries they had formerly been citizens of."

MajorPayne: exactly what country were Palestinians citizens of before the occupation? They were driven into surrounding Arab countries AFTER Israel was created and they were expelled from their homes.

"Either a separate state is established where law and order are put into effect or the people can be assimilated into countries they had formerly been citizens of."

MajorPayne: exactly what country were Palestinians citizens of before the occupation? They were driven into surrounding Arab countries AFTER Israel was created and they were expelled from their homes.

Muneer:

I hope law school is going well for you. From what I remember when we had a nice, vigorous discussion at Tate a few years ago, you're much better informed that you come off on your post. When you say that, "Do you watch the news? the Wall has NOT prevented rocket attacks, and Hamas renounced suicide bombings after it ran for elections back in 2006," you KNOW that these are separate issues. The "wall" you speak of (which is actually 95% fence, 5% wall) was designed to stop suicide bombings coming from the West Bank, which it has with very few exceptions. The Kassam (and now Katyusha) rockets come from Gaza. The Security Fence was never supposed to stop those.

Additionally, and this is directed toward Joanne, there is no official border separating Israel proper and the West Bank. The "Green Line" marks the armistice lines in 1949 - the territory West was controlled by Israeli forces and East by Jordanian. There will be no official borders unless mutually agreed upon by Israel and the PLO (as per the Oslo Accords). The land is and and will remain "disputed" until such an agreement is reached. The fence is also portable, meaning it can be moved based on the final border lines.

Back to Muneer: The so-called "Palestinians" of the pre-1948 Middle East were actually the Jews. Golda Meir's passport said "Palestinian" on it. There was a Jewish newspaper called the "Palestinian Post." It is now known as the "Jerusalem Post." The fact is, as you well know, there has never been an independent state called Palestine.

Finally, the refugee problem could have been avoided had the Arab states accepted the UN resolution creating two separate states. The Arab state would have been bigger than what is currently known as Gaza and the West Bank. Arab governments actually encouraged the Arabs who lived in what is now Israel, telling them to leave because of the fighting but that they could soon return.

My last post, because this is a dangerous avenue for many ppl (many of those above) to spread misinformation.

Jason:
1) All my points were in response to the previous posts, so I know it may be painful, but read the posts I am responding to (reference to rockets and the Wall).

2) The Wall: please stop with being in denial (is your statistic a truly scientific study? 95% v. 5%? Does it matter what it looks like anyways? Grow up!)

3) There is a border INTERNATIONALLY recognized by the UN. Israel has not recognized a border because since the day of its creation in 1948 its purpose was and still is (history speaks for itself) to grab as much land as possible. Recognizing a border only prevents them from stealing the land they so covet.

4) You are once again attempting to cloud facts with your reference to an "independent state". For people (including Jews) to call themselves Palestinians, and the Ottoman Empire recognizing Palestine and including representatives to it in its Parliament clearly indicates that there were Palestinians in the area israel now claims to be "disputed".

5) I dont remember you from undergrad, but by your post I can tell you are misinformed, thus you probably were the same at the time you claim I met you. No self-respecting Arab would have accepted the UN partition (the UN back then was basically the Allied powers) which gave over 50% of the land to a people that at the time owned less than 10% of it. And nothing of the past can be compared to today's reality. Today's reality is a symbol of the world's failure to prevent one of the worst injustices of our time.